[DEBUG HELP] DGIII vs. Vespucci-D as Mothership

[DocHoliday]

Hi Dan,

I recall you mentioned somewhere that you would like additional data on how the DG3 is compatible with the
Vespucci-D, so I thought I would start it off and possibly get someone else interested to help.

I started the thing realistically, if not methodically. I created a scenario in which you need to get 4 DG3s into orbit and
docked to the Vespucci before going off to ... say Jupiter

Before taking off, I started up the Vespucci, so the reactor would be at 20% CT when I docked the first DG3 there
and it turned out to be a good bug hunt idea.

Here is what I noticed so far. The problems are probably connected:
1. The RCS fuel gauge in the DG3 lower panel didn't show any number. If you dumped RCS fuel or used the thrusters
or X-fer fuel from the main tank it would shortly flicker and dissapear again.
2. There was a constant background sound as if the Outer Door is opening/closing, but nothing in the DG3 caused it.
The sound persisted throughout the flight.

Possible problem:
ad 1. I wasn't able to trace the cause of this. It may be connected to the second possible problem. But the solution to
the 2nd problem doesn't solve this one.
ad 2. I traced the cause to the OrbiterSound. It seems Vespucci comes with a special sound for the reactor core,
when it is active. It would seem the sound gets mixed up with the DG3's outer door. Now if you deactivate the core,
using the breakers on the lower panel, the fuel flow stops and the sound also.

I know the new OrbiterSound will probably dismiss this bug with the separate variables, but here is an additional
thing to test at least.

I put the DG3 into Safe Mode and it seems to work okay. Didn't test on long time acceleration yet. The other 3 DGs
need to be docked first.

Will keep you advised on how the whole superstructure handles in interplanetary flight or maybe someone else will
just go straight to that.

Cheers,

[Nectioch]

I can help a little bit, as I've spent some time working with Vespucci D. ;P

The RCS fuel display bug occured in the versions before I added sound so I'm sure they are linked so much. It comes
and goes under differing conditions. The sound bugs, however are just as you suggested. I should change the sound
defines to higher numbers so they don't effect other sound enabled ships as much. Have to try that.

[MattNW]

I found the same things. I also found problems using the Shuttle A2 and Vespucci. My present work around is to
transfer to the rider ship and then edit the scenario changing the Vespucci to the old one without the panel and
going from the standard DG to the DG III. It's a hassle but it works. Hopefully they'll be more compatable when the
new version of Orbiter Sound comes out.

[AphelionHellion]

No problem here with the Shuttle A2, but the sound bug did occur with the DGIII.
Interestingly, the DGIII wasn't even docked to the Vespucci - I had it docked to a module that was docked to the
Vespucci The Fuel Tree from station builder is good for that... I jacked up their capacity to 2 million kilograms so they
can act as "emergency reserves" for the Vespucci. Yeah I know, I'm a dirty rotten cheater

I don't even care about the DGIII bugs though - I've been learning the finer points of the A2 lately.
Hey Dan, don't look at me like that!
I still love the DG, but the Shuttle A looks a lot more like something that'd be docked to the Vespucci - heck, it even
looks a small bit like a minature Vespucci (long frame, girders and gray metal, boxy cockpit section, same basic
proportions between width and length).
My one wish for the Vespucci is that the docking ports stick out a bit more (so that the shuttle A's nose isn't slightly
buried in the Vespucci's model) and that they be set slightly further from the center (more clearance for certain ships
that are wider in cross-section or have nonretractable gear). That's why I docked those modules to my Vesp in the
first place - so it could accomodate oddly-shaped spacecraft like the dragonfly and pbSpaceBus.

[DocHoliday]

Yes, the sound bug occurs if DG3 and Vespucci are in the same scenario, being docked together is not
a "prerequisite"

I still don't know how to get the fuel transfer to work. I am using FuelMFD and the bug is acknowledged. What you
are using appears to be an older version of the same thing. Obviously without sounds. Where do I get it? I went
back to Shuttle-As from A2 for this reason alone. The DG3 cheats with fuel anyway anytime it's docked you can
have it refueled no matter if the station actually has fuel. Unless you turn that off in the DG3Config of course

But anyway. Did you try cruising with a fully laden Vespucci yet? How do the DGs live with that?

[AphelionHellion]

Doc: I'm not using the fuel xfer MFD, I'm using Trevor Johns' outstanding fuel management MFD -
I think it's got a much nicer interface (and you can use the MFD buttons! ) and is more versatile.


Haven't tried cruising with DGs yet, but I have flown a bit with my current load (which is quite a bit heavier, and not
symmetrical either) and the Vespucci doesn't seem to have any problems with it. It's so massive I think it'd take quite a big "daughter-ship" to noticably affect its handling.
The one problem I've had is that the Vespucci's killrot doesn't seem to totally stop its rotation. Even if it looks totally still, turning time acceleration on allows you to see its (very slow) rotation.
This may just be a problem with Orbiter and its handling of big spacecraft... I seem to recall similar problems with the Agamemnon and one or two other very large ships from Orbithangar.



Post Edited ( 06-30-04 04:21 )

[MattNW]

AphelionHellion wrote:

Haven't tried cruising with DGs yet, but I have flown a bit with my current load (which is quite a bit heavier, and not
symmetrical either) and the Vespucci doesn't seem to have any problems with it. It's so massive I think it'd take quite
a big "daughter-ship" to noticably affect its handling.
The one problem I've had is that the Vespucci's killrot doesn't seem to totally stop its rotation. Even if it looks totally
still, turning time acceleration on allows you to see its (very slow) rotation.
This may just be a problem with Orbiter and its handling of big spacecraft... I seem to recall similar problems with the
Agamemnon and one or two other very large ships from Orbithangar.

Actually what I think you are experiencing is the "Docked Structures" bug in Orbiter. If you hit "Kill Rotation" the ship
will continue in the direction it was going. Hitting "Kill Rot" again will reverse the direction. The workaround for that is
to kill rotation and then close Orbiter and reopen it with "Current State". Your ship should be still until you need to
rotate it again.

Why in the world do you need to carry extra fuel with the Vespucci? The latest version lets you refuel while
in flight.

[AphelionHellion]

MattNW: Well I was just puzzled by that, actually. I tried using the ramscoop en route to Jupiter and even though my
velocity is more than sufficient, I'm not getting any fuel from the ramscoop. Does the engine core need to be on? Or
off? Or are the ships I have docked to it messing things up? Grr :won:

Even if it works though it's always nice to have a little backup fuel to get you out of a scrape. I can't even remember
how many times the RCS tank on the DGIII (or the shuttleA for that matter, though the DGIII doesn't need the fuel
management MFD for this) has saved my ass

[DocHoliday]

Hm. That's very strange. I'm using fuel management MFD too. This is the one that has the funky fueling sounds from
Star Trek or something like that. Well, if I have a DG3 or a Shuttle-A2 and I try to press the Pump rate or whatever
button that is supposed to produce a sound Orbiter crashes. And I've heard that this is an acknowledged bug due to
OrbiterSound's handling of sound files. I don't understand how you made it to work okay unless you disabled the
MFD's sounds somehow

Oh and about the killrot bug. I read about that too in the main forum. And as MattNW said, the data that is actually
written in the Current State.cfg is correct. VROT is 0. What I found to work sufficiently enough is that you reduce the
time accel to 0.1x and press Killrot a few times to stabilize the structure. Then go back to normal. I didn't notice any
significant residual rotation left using that trick.

Cheers,

[AphelionHellion]

Doc: Hmm, maybe I have an old version of fuel management MFD. Or a new one?
Or maybe it's what's causing the ramscoop problem  
(unlikely, yeah)

I accidentally discovered that killrot fix just the other day. If you hit it a few times, even in normal time acceleration, it'll
eventually get it right
I've been experimenting with using the rider ships to help stabilize things, but it's been discouraging

[AphelionHellion]

Does Nectioch have a website?
If so, where is it?
If not, why the heck not? Hey, I'll happily build him one if he needs it

[AphelionHellion]

Booyeah! I did it! Woohoo!
I flew the Vespucci from (high) Earth orbit straight to Jupiter orbit and lined up with the plane of its moons, with those
modules and ships docked to it, without unlimited fuel on, using only the transfer MFD (and using the IMFD planetary
map for manual corrections)  
Who's yer daddy, space? Who's yer dad-day!?  


That manual was very helpful, Nectioch. Thanks!
One thing I'm glad you included in the manual (something I think should be underlined and highlighted for us n00bs) -
the Vespucci is for interplanetary travel only, not low orbital sightseeing. If I get into a low planetary orbit I burn a
painful amount of fuel getting back out. This is a mistake I made at first when I had the Vespucci start off in a very low
space shuttle sort of orbit.
I like this analogy: Much like a large oceangoing ship, it has to anchor a ways offshore and then you take some sort of
small landing craft onto the beach.

One thing I'm still trying to figure out - the plasma vent drive is supposed to be inefficient, if I read the manual
correctly, but it seems to use less fuel and produce more thrust than the conventional drive (and yes I had thrust
preheat all the way on). I may be wrong: it may take longer to charge the plasma container than it takes to discharge
it, but it doesn't seem like it?

Ah crap, bedtime. At least I have some suitable subject matter for my sci-fi dreams

[DocHoliday]

Doc: Hmm, maybe I have an old version of fuel management MFD. Or a new one?
Or maybe it's what's causing the ramscoop problem  
(unlikely, yeah)

Could you mail me your version?

Hehe, I like the sailship analogy "Anchors away, prepare the longboat for landfall!" The manual DOES say that
Vespucci should be parked in a ~50.000 klick orbit, but the reason was so that you don't kill innocent life with
Vespucci's deadly electromagnetic fields and all that.

About the plasma vent. The way I understood it, you use the reactor to generate extra plasma if you put it in
overdrive (the procedure is in the manual) and you can store the plasma in a separate tank. When you feel you need
the extra push (probably at periapsis of the target planet) you press the plasma vent switch while you are burning
the main engines and it gives you a 100% more thrust. I guess the inefficient part refers to how you acquire plasma -
the overdriving of the reactor - not the actual use of it.

Cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

Ah.. I was reading the conversation up to this point and Only now am I finally downloading the blasted ship.

how could I have missed such a thing?



Post Edited ( 06-30-04 14:21 )

[DocHoliday]

Be careful Freespace. The ship comes with a manual and there is a reactor on board and there are
certain formulas running in the background with certain ratios to be observed at all times!!!

Are you sure, your head won't hurt???

Then again, you did get a highscore in that nuc reactor simulation...

[freespace2dotcom]

Formulas? Manuals?

Who needs formulas and manuals to to a re-entry: freespace style. 8)

(that sucker just wouldn't stop, when I hit the ground, orbiter crashed. )

[DocHoliday]

What did you do? Seems to me, you didn't even turn on the main core. You will have a sucky acceleration with your
power off, ya know.

[freespace2dotcom]

Hush! I Don't want you intellectuals telling me how to ruin my ships!

[DocHoliday]

Sure thing, Tex!

[freespace2dotcom]

No, seriously!

I'm happy with how I handle the thing now. mind you, that was my first flight with the ship. and I'm not the one to
read the manual before taking a new toy out of the box. But now I have, and now I like the thing. It's VERY
cumborsome, but that can be forgiven because it's got more power. *w00t* I must say that I wasn't expecting much
of it when I was losing like 40 tons a second, but, Now I know how to properly fly the thing. It looks a tad too much
like the deltaglider on the inside, but hey, you can't beat that design. you know?

[DocHoliday]

Ya, mon!

[freespace2dotcom]

That's the lousiest cheap imitation of a jamaican accent I've ever read.

[AphelionHellion]

Don be ascowlin, mon! I and I be joyin de Orbiter - is 'mazin groove trip we be liftin togetha mon. One love!


Ok, that sucked too  But my dad has a lot of Jamaican friends - you'd [i[think[/i] I'd be better at speaking patois by
now. You'd think it :P

[MattNW]

AphelionHellion wrote:
MattNW: Well I was just puzzled by that, actually. I tried using the ramscoop en route to Jupiter and even though my
velocity is more than sufficient, I'm not getting any fuel from the ramscoop. Does the engine core need to be on? Or
off? Or are the ships I have docked to it messing things up? Grr :won:

Even if it works though it's always nice to have a little backup fuel to get you out of a scrape. I can't even remember
how many times the RCS tank on the DGIII (or the shuttleA for that matter, though the DGIII doesn't need the fuel
management MFD for this) has saved my ass

It should work OK in the latest version of Vespucci_D. Make sure you have the 1.1.1 version. and it's best to have the
fusion core off when collecting because often the rate of collection isn't as high as what the fusion reactor needs. If
you go into time acceleration with the reactor going and fuel collection drops you may end up with empty tanks. It
may be possible that the generator bug wasn't completely fixed in the latest version. Try turning the generator
switch off and back on quickly to see if that shows fuel collecting. Also remember that you must be traveling at
greater than 10km/sec (I think that's the speed) before the scoop will collect much. It also works best when close to
planets. Collection will drop off between planets and pick back up as you approach your destination. It takes time to
build up fuel so the scoop is mainly for long voyages where you will be traveling for a long time and high speeds.

In my opinion Vespucci is the best long range ship in Orbiter. It's ability to refuel in flight, carry rider ships and the fact
that it's realistically big enough to serve as a deep space vehicle makes it about the best thing going in the "Long
Legs" dept. When the new version of Orbiter sound and Orbiter comes out so you don't have to juggle scenarios
around it'll be an unbeatable companion to the DG III and Shuttle A2.

Got a new computer in the works so this old machine can be turned over to simulations. I'm planning a trip with
Vespucci coupled with two DG IIIs and two shuttle A2s from Earth to Mars real time meaning I'm not going to use
time acceleration. The flight will be handled just like a real Mars mission. If I have to do a insertion burn at 3:00 a.m.
then that's when I'll do it.

[AphelionHellion]

Matt: Well my speed was more than high enough (on the way to Jupiter) and the ramscoop meter on the upper right
panel read as activated and the "optimum speed bar" (or whatever it's called) was at 100%.
It is the latest version, too...

Generator bug? Thanks I'll try that - turn it off and on again?

Hah, that's actually a really cool idea (doing a realtime trip)!! Let us know how that goes. Hopefully using the
Vespucci it won't take 10 months or whatever the current NASA estimates are for a mission with current technology.

I've been thinking of doing that on my computer with the "To The Moon in 24 hours" addon.
I'd hafta save often though, as I'm too addicted to the 'net to keep from switching to my web browser or what have
you and Orbit always crashes sooner or later when I'm doing that