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Author Topic: [DEBUG HELP] DGIII vs. Vespucci-D as Mothership  (Read 18089 times)

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Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #50 - 12 July 2004, 09:04:28
Hm, I'm sorry Netioch gave up on Windows and Orbiter after the trouble with his computer. His work will be missed
and the fruits of his labor will be used.

Anyway, I took the Vespucci out for another spin yesterday and I got the Scoop working (by resetting the Gen Main
switch), and it works nicely. I get about 4.24 kg/s reverse fuel flow, which is still 4.14 if you have the reactor online,
so pretty cool.

Anyway, about the efficiency of the scoop. The manual says that it is most efficient when used prograde and when
above a certain speed limit (20km/s?). Now for some reason the velocity feedback obviously depends on the current
main source of gravity (the one that the HUD recognizes on auto), which means that scoop's efficiency first starts to
drop as you speed away from the planet and your velocity slowly falls with relation to it. But when you get into Sun's
sphere of influence, your velocity will quite possibly jump up to above 24km/s and so will your scoop efficiency. The
manual also says, that a real-life scoop would be extremely hazardous to living organisms, so I guess Vespucci was
designed so that you would use the scoop only AFTER you enter solar orbit and are finished escaping the source
planet. So I guess there is no bug here, just a matter of proper interpretation :)

I managed to get the fuel up to full capacity just in a few days after the escape burn. Beware: if you generate plasma
for a future high-intensity burn - plasma is lost with time, so make sure you don't fill up your reservoirs too early. Also
make you don't vent plasma unless you want to. Even if your engines are OFF, plasma vent will still act as engine
thrust (just check external view). :)

So much from my latest experience with the Big D :)
Cheers,


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline AphelionHellion

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Reply #51 - 12 July 2004, 12:00:15
Doc: I have a bug/feature/cheat with Vespucci :) You may have found it already, but it's news to me ;)

Using the Fuel Management MFD, you'll see that there are 3 tanks in the Vespucci - the huge main fuel tank, a 1000
kilo tank that "powers" the external lights, and a little 100 kilo tank. Turns out that's the plasma containment :)
All you hafta do if you need some quick thrust is pump 100 kilos of fuel into that little tank - now your panel will show a
full accumulation of plasma. Hit the vent and voila, instant delta-V! And insanely efficient if you keep in mind that the
H2 feed to fill up that tank requires 200 kilos/second over a period of many many many minutes, or that standard
thrust, even with preheat on, takes about 390 kilograms per second of fuel.

I just hope I don't get banned for encouraging cheaters or desecrating Nectioch's fine work. Or something :doubt:
*paranoid*
*dons his tinfoil hat so the moderators can't read his thoughts*

I'd like to add a potentially useful, non-cheating tip for new Vespucci pilots to compensate for my transgression and
hopefully spare my life at the hands of Mod Tarkin :)

When traveling to another planet in the Vespucci, (say Earth to Mercury - the trip I took the other day) you may find
that you forgot to turn your scoop on and you're almost upon the planet. Or you didn't set thrust preheat and you ate
up most of your fuel on the transfer. Or you left the reactor cranked up and bled your fuel out slowly via emergency
heating. Or you used a bunch of fuel inserting yourself into your orbit at your destination. Or some combination
thereof... Whatever - you're low on gas! 8o
What ya do in this situation is set up your orbit to be highly eliptical - in the case of mercury for instance my PeD was
about 2 megameters, and my ApD was 42 megameters. The trick is to get as eliptical as possible without being pulled
out of your orbit by the sun near your Apoapsis. The scoop collects best in interplanetary space - this may not be what
the manual says, but it's the truth, because it uses your velocity relative to whatever body is affecting you most,
gravitationally.
Bottom line is, in low planetary orbit, your scoop will at best net you about .03 kilos per second. Yawn. On the other
hand, when you're on the distant end of your highly eliptical orbit, past the point at which the G field influence from
that planet is less than 50%, now you're traveling relative to the Sun, and no matter how pokey your speed is relative
to that planet, you've got the planet's orbital motion itself moving you relative to the sun. So your fuel intake will go
through the roof (to 9.x k/s or so in some cases, but over 3.0 k/s at least) once you get far enough away from that
planet. If you play your cards right you can drop off your rider ships at Periapsis and just let the Vespucci make a few
orbits up there scooping up fuel each time it leaves the immediate vicinity of that planet while you do your whole
landing, refueling and dropping off imaginary pizzas thing :)


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Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #52 - 12 July 2004, 12:34:26
Quote
Using the Fuel Management MFD, you'll see that there are 3 tanks in the Vespucci - the huge main fuel tank, a
1000
kilo tank that "powers" the external lights, and a little 100 kilo tank. Turns out that's the plasma containment
That is splendid thinking, my good man! No, actually I didn't bother to look at those tanks. Hm, I'm not even sure
that "plasma tank" was empty when I did look. But I guess you're right..

Um... now to evade the wrath of the Physically Correct Orbinauts... We'll, I guess we'll have to invent a procedure, or
a mechanism, that changes fuel to plasma directly... emm.. my Star Trek lingo is bit rusty.. let's see.. Remember the
Impulse engines? Aren't they supposed to burn hydrogen collected by Bussard ramscoop and converting it to plasma,
hence giving the ship a pust up to 3/4c??? Hm... now to call this some nice name.. Plasma injectors? Just plain
Impulse Drive? AphelionHellion Converter?? :) (where did you get that nick btw?) AphelionHellion Turbo Hydrogen-
Plasma Coversion Coils? :) The A.H.T.H.P.C.C. Drive hehe... be creative. You discovered this as far as I know. Check
the main forum :)

Quote
Or you left the reactor cranked up and bled your fuel out slowly via emergency
heating. Or you used a bunch of fuel inserting yourself into your orbit at your destination. Or some combination
thereof... Whatever - you're low on gas!
I was really waiting for you to make a point here! :)

You get 9k/s??? I didn't get that even in interplanetary space, but it WAS on 100% efficiency.. hmmm.. I agree though
the scoop takes the current reference gravity source into account. I guess the best points then would be after you
eject prograde from Mercury, you should have a huge velocity (Mercury's own plus Delta-V), but only after your clear
Mercury's SOI, or fall down elliptically to any planet... which is what you were describing.

Neat, will try that tonight,
Cheers


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline AphelionHellion

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Reply #53 - 12 July 2004, 22:01:16
Hmm... The Vespucci also has a nuclear fission reactor of some sort to provide power when the fusion core is powered
down, right?
So emergency sequence um... #13B involves diverting H2 directly through the primary coolant loop of the fission
reactor to generate plasma for emergency orbital operations. This procedure destabilizes the reactor and requires
it to be temporarily shut down afterward, as well as requiring a maintainance flush of the coolant loop.
Also, this procedure may carry radioactive contaminants into the fusion module and propulsion system, requiring a
non-automated (some poor bastards from the crew need to do the grunt work) decontamination and maintainance
cycle. Therefore, this procedure is never advisable except as a last resort to prevent a potential de-orbit
situation.
:)

Quote
You get 9k/s??? I didn't get that even in interplanetary space, but it WAS on 100% efficiency.. hmmm.. I agree
though
the scoop takes the current reference gravity source into account. I guess the best points then would be after you
eject prograde from Mercury, you should have a huge velocity (Mercury's own plus Delta-V), but only after your clear
Mercury's SOI, or fall down elliptically to any planet.


SOI! That's the word I was looking for! :fool:
Anyway you're right, I should have specified that it does vary depending on what direction your apoapsis is relative to
the planet you're orbiting. I think I was lucky with Mercury, as I kept my orbit eliptical directly on injection from a
transfer trajectory - so my apoapsis was prograde of the planet :)
Then there's the planet itself. You can get higher temporary fuel influx rates around a very large planet like Jupiter,
obviously, as your orbital velocity needs to be greater. This would explain why I got much higher rates around the
outer planets than Mercury, even though Mercury has (I'd think) the highest velocity relative to the sun.
Also, the efficiency meter on the ramscoop is only really useful at low speeds. It might be pegged at 100 and you may
be getting 3 kg/s or 10 kg/s. I don't think there's a maximum rate, at least not one I've encountered.

As for my name, I just made it up when I couldn't think of anything else to use.
Aphelion: the point at which a body orbiting the sun is furthest from the sun
Hellion: basically a young mischevious punk :)



Post Edited ( 07-12-04 22:02 )

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Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #54 - 13 July 2004, 10:59:58
Quote
Then there's the planet itself. You can get higher temporary fuel influx rates around a very large planet like
Jupiter,
obviously, as your orbital velocity needs to be greater. This would explain why I got much higher rates around the
outer planets than Mercury, even though Mercury has (I'd think) the highest velocity relative to the sun.
Also, the efficiency meter on the ramscoop is only really useful at low speeds. It might be pegged at 100 and you may
be getting 3 kg/s or 10 kg/s. I don't think there's a maximum rate, at least not one I've encountered.
Also, but this may not actually have been coded, the giants would have a high content of helium around them, so you
get more of it there.. Generally there is probably more helium around planets as it escapes atmosphere than in deep
space, so there is another reason for higher rates around planet. But this only goes for the ones with any kind of
atmosphere. Again, I'm not sure Netioch programmed it that way, but it comes out realistic anyway :)

I think the green bar only reflect the scooping EFFICIENCY rather than the actualy rate.. so at one point your get 3k/s
at a 100% efficiency and at other time you get 5k/s at only 50% efficiency, so that logic also works.

So I guess Imna call you High Flying Punk now :)


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #55 - 13 July 2004, 20:37:04
Success!!!

My first trip to Jupiter. And from Mars to make it more interesting! :)

The trip took over 2 years, I went for an almost perfect HTO, because it was my first try. Jupiter's sphere of influence
reached on 10th March, 2008 and orbit insertion took place almost a month later. With an almost 1 hour retro burn,
without plasma, I inserted the Vespucci class ship into a perfect 0.5 eccentricity orbit of about 220.000km by
670000km. The orbit was retrograde though, with an ugly inclination of 139deg :(

BUT I DID IT. With a full load of DG3s. As I wanted to prepare it all for a screenshot, the remote vessel control CTD
Orbiter on me... :(

Glad to report the DG3 behaved well during the trip. They were all in safe mode and came out of it without a problem.
Good work, Dan! :)


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline AphelionHellion

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Reply #56 - 14 July 2004, 09:22:19
Doc: Congrats!!  :)
Is that a cool experience or what? Somehow interplanetary flight is a whole new world compared to just heading to
the moon (or Phobos from Mars).

For some reason my first flight to Jupiter put me in a retrograde, high inclination orbit too. I guess it takes some extra
planning as you near the SOI to get the injection the way you want it. Those moons can affect your orbit too once you
get in close, too ;)  I found that out the hard way when I tried to get back to the Vespucci from Io via ShuttleA and
found that it wasn't where I'd expected it to be because of Callisto - or is it Ganymede?
The big one :)


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Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #57 - 14 July 2004, 09:39:18
Ganymede :)

Well actually the trip was boring but for the fear I'd mess up something or Orbiter would CTD. Two hours or so
realtime.. I was using IMFD. I was confused all the time. I didn't know which display is giving me the best prediction
data. Is it the Cruise Mode, the Map Mode, the Map-Ext Mode, TEI/Approach Mode.. what??? They all showed
different things...

In the end I settled to use just the Cruise mode and the the Map Mode.. Once I got closer to Jupiter I discovered that
the TEI/Approach mode also makes available the Insert Orbit submode, which works perfectly :) you get to set your
ApD or the Ecc.. and it automatically burns at periapsis with the right timing ;)

Anyway, my REAL problem was the ejection burn. I computed it in TransX, TransferMFD AND IMFD, just to make sure I
got the launch window right. I shot off in the wrong direction to many a time, hehe. But the really strange thing was
that the Burn guidance of the IMFD instructed me to burn retrograde for some reason and I actually stopped in my
tracks around Mars and pushed off in the other direction. I didn't let it bother me, because Vespucci NEVER runs out
of fuel, unless you burn without the reactor :) So I guess it makes perfect sense I came in retrograde, I also left that
way :) I need to work on that. Obviously IMFD means which direction you want your engines to face, instead of which
direction you are travelling or maybe I'm missing some other point.

Hm... Also my scoop never got passed about 3kg/s collection flow... :( no 9 or 10.... even around Jupiter. Still got the
tank filled quckly enough :)

Cheers,


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline AphelionHellion

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Reply #58 - 15 July 2004, 07:15:47
Doc: Sheesh, I REALLY need to learn IMFD! :wall: Sounds useful...

I think the reason I got such a high fuel flow was that I wasn't in a transfer orbit, I just cranked up the deltaV as far
as I felt I could and still slow down again in a reasonable amount of time. More speed = more gas :drink:
But you're right, on a trip that long you don't need a very high flow rate to fill your tanks completely.

I stand by my elliptical trans-SOI fuel runs, though :)


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Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #59 - 15 July 2004, 08:53:10
AH: IMFD is extremely useful. Unlike TransX it also features a special set of "useful little proggies" you can use
independandly.. Like orbit circulization, plane change (to eqatorial and ecliptic inclination as well - not just wrt
targets), Velocity match (VERY useful with docking), aerobreaking, trans earth injection from the moon, orbit ejection
and injection.. plus the powerful cruise and map functions :) And it's less complex than TransX, but you can't make
flight stages and I suspect you also can't make plans for multiple planet passes like you can in TransX.. But I'm not
such a stellar navigator yet anyway :)

Anyway,  I feel REALLY lonely out there at Jupiter.. The Sun is waaaay out there, the Earth can't be seen and I only
have the four stock Jupiter moons, so it's even less crowded.. plus they are moving in the other direction, so I can't
do much in the way of away parties :) I honestly get that 2010-creepy feeling. When is the Monolith gonna appear
and how do I get home :) Realism rulz! :)

Cheers,


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline Travis Reed

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Reply #60 - 18 July 2004, 15:46:58
Quote
freespace2dotcom wrote:
well. It's not like I'd just sit at that computer for six months, or however long it'd take. :)

My main problem would be if I would be away at school when I needed to do a mars orbit insertion.

My scooping worked the one time I tried it. Although it was pretty ineffective, likely because I wasn't going fast. nor
particularly near a planet :)

I have a problem with orbiter sound though. whenever I click on almost anything in the DG3, (while I have a vespucci
in the same scenario) I get what sounds like a low pitched vespucci warning, or a humming goes off. what do I need
to do to get rid of that? :)

For me I had the same problem  (except that DG3 no longer works for me...:( Had to substitue DGs). I've got the
Vewspucci-D enroute to Mars with three DGs and a Shuttle-A2
I got tired of hearing the vespucci reactor sound whilst working with the shuttleA2s radar.. Icorrected this by having it
load the Shuttle A2 after the Vespucci in the scenario file. Just list the ship you wants the sound sceme for at the
bottom of the scenario and you'll be fine. Still waiting to hear from Dan about my DG3 problem...Dan...go check yer
email.



Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #61 - 18 July 2004, 16:09:41
Alternatively you can also replace the "problematic" sound file with a more pleasing one or an empy sound file :)


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline AphelionHellion

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Reply #62 - 18 July 2004, 21:00:35
Yeah, or maybe a converted music file. Perhaps "We like to party" by the Vengaboys :music:
(ever see that Six Flags commercial with the dancing old guy?) :)

Ok, so that'd probably get annoying after a few months, but use your imagination :drink:


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Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #63 - 18 July 2004, 22:38:48
Hehe, like that Zephram Cochrane launch music hehehe Imagine listening to THAT for 5 months instead of the reactor
sound on your way to Jupiter *shivers*


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline freespace2dotcom

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Reply #64 - 19 July 2004, 00:33:51
hehe.. I'm a j-rock kinda guy.


asian kung-fu generation rules.

www.cross-roads.jp/asiankung_fu/ ;)

(yes, I really do visit japanese sites even though I don't understand about 90% of the text.. it's enough to navigate
through them :):):) )

If it interests you to know, the music video I wished to create was with their song, "Haruka kanata" in mind.

it's pretty darn cool if I say so myself. :) I could listen to j-pop/rock for a whole year straight if I had to. ;)



Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #65 - 19 July 2004, 02:04:46
Alright hatamoto-sama. Kindly explain how I can get my hands on some music on this site :) My Nippon is so rusty it
helps me understand dickey bird :)

EDIT: I am seriously developing the Czeck syndrom. The keyboard version of dislexia, ehehe



Post Edited ( 07-19-04 02:05 )

~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline freespace2dotcom

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Reply #66 - 19 July 2004, 04:20:24
sent you a few private messages. ;)



Offline Travis Reed

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Reply #67 - 19 July 2004, 15:13:32
I know this is a bit off topic for this particular topic, but I finally got my DG3 working again, had to reinstall the Orbiter
base over top of itself. I'm now getting ready to substitue all my DGs attached to Vespucci with DG3s.



Post Edited ( 07-19-04 15:15 )


Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #68 - 21 July 2004, 09:00:31
Hey Travis,

make sure you put them all in Safe Mode, before going on a long trip. If you're used to stock DG, you may forget that.
Otherwise you will find your crew dead and frozen :)

It's neat though. You stick the DG3s on.. make the planetary ejection, wait until your scoop start to pump in fuel and
then REFUEL all of your DG3s as well as the main tanks :)

I love the Vespucci. Shame the source code was lost.. I guess it's one those historical things. The parchments of
Alexandria Library were lost, some of the works of Tesla were lost, Vespucci code was lost.... same category eh? :)

Cheers and good luck on your Journeys,


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline Travis Reed

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Reply #69 - 21 July 2004, 15:42:55
Who needs to put them in safe mode...just give them enough air for seven years, or open both the inner and outer
airlock (thus using air from Vespucci) Or pump in air from Vespucci usnig the dock input...
Nah, I shut them all down, figuredthat everyone would rather spendthe seven month long trip on Vespucci instead of
their cramped (comparitively) DG3...

« Last Edit: 21 July 2004, 15:42:55 by Travis Reed »