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Author Topic: Direct Ascent to the ISS!  (Read 35302 times)

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Offline Atom

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Reply #25 - 02 June 2004, 23:50:19
Quote
DocHoliday wrote:
hehe, I have it. It's the phone line. Not more than 33 or 31 sometimes goes passed it. Old and worn out. I live in a
rented appartment so I don't fuss about it. My job is 10 minutes away so no problem if there is something
REALLY big
and REALLY important to transfer :)



Like Orbiter? :)



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Offline DanSteph

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Reply #26 - 02 June 2004, 23:51:50
Grreat work Janez, :)

I'm gonna try it right now howewer I can make some remarques right now:

no voice: perhaps you are not tuned to the good frequency radio, thinking about
your add-on janez last day I noted in my "todo" list to add the possibility to
have a "frequency" parameter in one scenario.. Ie: it will not be saved here usually
but for those that want to do some adventures it would be nice to provide a scenario
with the radio already tuned on the right frequency.

about missing the station: take care to have the same engine setting (MARK**)
otherwise the ascent will not look the same.

I'll download the package and try it right now :gift:

Thanks Janez, I'm now beta tester of your add-on :)

Dan


Offline Krytom

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Reply #27 - 02 June 2004, 23:54:11
Thanx Dan. I shall try the package again.



Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #28 - 02 June 2004, 23:56:08
I went around it. I overwrite the radio.cfg file with a file from the ZIP (containing the correct one), so you start your
scenario with the right frequency. I know it is bad (against the addon rules) to do that, but it seemed harmless. I
provided info in the readme about it and how to do it without overriding the file. So I guess I did all I can in this kind
of situation :)

Ah yes! The engine setting. I was about to say this. The Ascent Program is designed for Mark IV engines. The
standard ones, so Freespace will probably overshoot, I think you said you have Mark V, if memory serves :) so take
care to degrade them for this particual trip :)


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #29 - 03 June 2004, 00:00:36
Krytom:
Quote
However, I looked at the sound file that came with it and it seems that there's meant to be someone talking
you
through the procedures, i.e. you or 'Jackson' as he is known. When I tried it briefly just now there was none. I only
got the 'Welcome to the medical station commander Jackson' bit when I docked.
Also, the autopilot never asked me to activate turbo-boost, and thirdly, (this might have been my fault) when the
autopilot had finished and the DGII was in orbit, I had missed the station by about 600 km. That resulted me getting
to the station too late to save the guy

When you unzipped the archive, did it ask you about overwriting the file? If not, it makes sense the radio didn't work.
Check the readme on how to set it up. Just switch the frequency to 000.911 (for Space medics, hehe), exit Orbiter
and start the scenario again.

Oh and you overshot the station, because you didn't hear the instructions. That was CORRECT. You should stay put
and wait for DG3 to reach the AN in the AlignMFD. Meanwhile the station itself WILL approach you to about 50km or
so. Depends on how accuratelly you take off. Of course you couldn't without the sound.

You need to takeoff when the TrL for ISS in the Orbit MFD is exactly 175.61 deg. At this exact moment you push + and
CTRL and off you go.


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #30 - 03 June 2004, 00:05:34
Quote
no voice: perhaps you are not tuned to the good frequency radio, thinking about
your add-on janez last day I noted in my "todo" list to add the possibility to
have a "frequency" parameter in one scenario..

That would be cool, but you are still left with the problem: if you accelerate time, the last sound is repeated and the
time sequence messed up. At least sometimes. Then the whole time sequencing is useless if you have a scenario
with longer distances and you cannot possibly sit and wait at 1x time, just to keep the sound sequence working :)

I think it has to do something with the autopilot being disengaged at higher than 10x or perhaps the sequence loop
option you have.. Or maybe it was delieberate, so you can hear the same comment again in case you missed it :)


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline DanSteph

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Reply #31 - 03 June 2004, 00:07:12
AMAZING !!!!


I'm trying it right now, first remark:  for whatewer reason the radio is tuned on 000.009 at start instead of
000.911 this is why it don't start. (and yes I overwrited the radio.cfg)

I love the voice, very nicelly done. (I tuned 911 manually)

I return trying the rest :)

Dan


Offline Krytom

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Reply #32 - 03 June 2004, 00:07:56
Mmmmmmm :wonder:, OK :) Thanks to you too Doc. But I'm afraid I won't be able to try the scenario again because
it's my bed time. :zzz:

Goodnight :top:



Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #33 - 03 June 2004, 00:12:56
****. IT was 009 before, than I changed it..

EVERYONE RADIO FREQUENCY IS 000.911 not 000.009. The radioMFD probably says bad frequency... Ah , there goes
my big surprise down the drain.... :/


~~~

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Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #34 - 03 June 2004, 00:18:59
Uploading the corrected version..

I'll have to turn in soon too. :)


~~~

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Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #35 - 03 June 2004, 00:24:47
Quote
I love the voice, very nicelly done. (I tuned 911 manually)

I use goldwave to make it sound like from a radio (high/low frequency limitation), so you can use ANY wave as radio
chatter.

You will notice it is perfectly timed as if it were event triggered. But it only goes to say your ascent program is deadly
reliable :) at least on my machine. May not be on another....

Even triggering is another thing on my wish list for orbitersound 3.0.  Just like you did it for the "500, 400, 300,..."
voice aid. :) altitude, fuel, velocity, acceleration, gravitational pull.. it could all be done. but... more work work :)


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #36 - 03 June 2004, 00:31:46
Quote
I'll download the package and try it right now

Thanks Janez, I'm now beta tester of your add-on

Well, technically it is all YOUR addons I just used them differently. :)


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline McBrain

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Reply #37 - 03 June 2004, 00:56:11
8o 8o 8o 8o
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
Really well done, Doc!!!!!
That's the most perfect timed radio sequence I ever heard! :)
About the voice: It's really good to understand! :) Even for a not english-speaking guy (like me)!

I think of programming an "Orbiter Career" programm!
It would add some story to Orbiter.
You have a programm which shows you the interior of the ISS or a building at the Cape and then you can earn money by doing transport missions for a transport company or act as space-taxi driver. Then you can buy new ships when you have enough money (or buy new shipparts for the DGIII, if Dan tells me how to set the engine type or the other DGIII-features)
I already have the docking check part. (this part, that checks the (Current State).scn for docked spacecraft after you've done a mission)
I'm currently learning C++, so it may take a while, until this is finished! :)
But probably my Dad can help me, because he's a very good programmer.


Cheers,

McBrain

----------------------------------------
In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?

Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #38 - 03 June 2004, 01:05:42
Quote
Really well done, Doc!!!!!
That's the most perfect timed radio sequence I ever heard!
About the voice: It's really good to understand!  Even for a not english-speaking guy (like me)!

Thanks, but did you save the guy? Able to dock as instructed? In my scenario I get to about 30km while breaking
before I burn towards the station. You?

That is a great idea! I remember something like that exists for the FS. If you could do it, it would be great. Have some
continouity in Orbiter. But you would also have to be able to generate scenario files. I buy I new ship, it should be
sitting at a launch pad somewhere, right? :)

hmm.. *head buzzing with ideas* :)


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline Atom

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Reply #39 - 03 June 2004, 01:19:45
Real nice, Doc. I coverted some MP3's into Wave format and put them into a radio station using the sequntial editor.
Hehe.:)



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Offline DanSteph

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Reply #40 - 03 June 2004, 01:47:33
Wow, rescued with 8% O2 remaining... was hot :hot: :)

Very good trip I must say, while flying it I had seen all the weak
point that OrbiterSound still have and that must be corrected.
I'll speak about that later.

But first I should not lost the sight of my beta tester duty :)

About trigger I hallucinated.. your voice said "engine cuttof" at the exact
second it cutted off, Your ascent program ROCK, it set  350km right on the money

About bug:

-the radio CFG seem to not work properly, as said before it set 000.009
 instead of 000.911 at start.

-there is already five men aboard, you must jettison one before being able
 to rescue Leo Farawitz, would be nice to remove one men in the scenario
 to make room for him.

-you speak about 175.61 but it was more 173.61 or so when I launched
at the exact time (when you say go) I bet this value is a bit too sensible to
rely on it... perhaps you might remove it from the doc and say instead
that we must start at go, it work well I catched the iss with 40km final (before burning toward)
wich is very good immo.

That's all, nice for a first release :)

About wish:

My personnal wish: some more wav before ending the sound sequence
the first catch when the ascent program end is 600km, the last instructions
are a bit too condensed for my taste and some more wav to explain with greater
detail would be welcome. (and perhaps some ambiant voice or voice from the
man that we must rescue "Hey nice to see you boy" with another voice?)
I would say that this may happen only during the 40 secondes after ascent stop
so we are free after to speed up the approach.

Also would be cool that the last wav state really clearly that it will be the
last radio communication.  (perhaps because the earth station isn't in sight anymore?)
So we know that now we are really free to change focus and do whatewer we want.

If you want to avoid the "sequence restart" bug when you switch to Leo
you can state in one of the last wave that one must set frequency to MSS (any empty frequence)
before switching (consistant with the docking wave)

Now about OrbiterSound and feature that this aventure inspired to me:

Too bad that the radio sequence restart when you switch vessel, this IS
resolved in the OrbiterSound 3.0.

More feature that I'll add that come directly from this experience:

Ability to put a saved frequency to load per ship in the scenario.
so each time you switch vessel a different sequence may start.
If the scenario don't have one, the setting is loaded from radio.cfg
else each ship have is hown setting.

-resolve time jump bug.

-resolve focus change sequence restart bug.

It would be nice to have triggered sound instead of timed anyway I'm affraid
it would be a losse of time for me, the timed sound took me a lot of time to do
and very few people use it.  A triggered system would take me even longer to do
(months?) and I'm not sure it would be more used. (and you know I don't have much
time yet)

Cya later...

Dan

PS: I never saw the "engage turbo" msg from autopilot, I passed 1000 before I engage it
perhaps you can voice it instead ?  I know I must engage them but it might be confusing
for other peoples. Anyway at least you can push the message to ALT 1490 in the PRO904
it will be less sensible.



Post Edited ( 06-03-04 02:09 )


Offline DanSteph

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Reply #41 - 03 June 2004, 02:03:24
while my explaination suck I'll give some exemple about the voice at T+0
(when the engine cuttof after the ascent)

Those are just my wish, idea to add ambiance or make things more clears.

T+0: "engine cuttof"
T+5: "ok guy, now the mss and you will approach each other with an increasing speed until 30 or 40km blabla we
have time, relax... etc etc"
T+10: (I'll see more here the AE35 wave, we are more calme, nothing to do etc etc)
T+19: quick breath, paniqued & yelling voice "Here is leo, Oh boy it's really good to see you, I was almost dead blabla"
T+23: "stay calm Leo, we are comming, over - Ok guy I'll keep my breath.. over"
T+40: "ok now come last instruction: you must engage the antinormal pilot blabla let things comming close to 40km or less, the closing speed will increase until it reverse, it will be time to burn toward the Mss and do the final
approach"
T+45: "Earth station, we are almost out of range, salute Leo for us when you meet him, good job End
of all radio communication"

Your voice is really excellent.

Dan



Post Edited ( 06-03-04 02:10 )


Offline DanSteph

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Reply #42 - 03 June 2004, 02:28:50
Quote
DocHoliday wrote:
Ah yes! The engine setting. I was about to say this. The Ascent Program is designed for Mark IV engines. The
standard ones, so Freespace will probably overshoot, I think you said you have Mark V, if memory serves :) so take
care to degrade them for this particual trip :)

Perhaps you can supply also the config.cfg located in sound/dgIII ?

Dan


Offline DanSteph

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Reply #43 - 03 June 2004, 02:32:08
last things :)

A countdown with your voice would be really nice instead of the stock one...

Dan


Offline freespace2dotcom

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Reply #44 - 03 June 2004, 05:38:15
Quote
DocHoliday wrote:
Ah yes! The engine setting. I was about to say this. The Ascent Program is designed for Mark IV engines. The
standard ones, so Freespace will probably overshoot, I think you said you have Mark V, if memory serves :) so take
care to degrade them for this particual trip :)


I tell you. I don't USE the ascent proggy!
And I wouldn't use the descent one, either, if it wasn't for the fear of a firey death. (freespace starts hitting his chair repeatedly in anger of the thought) I'm not too good for time acceleration or old fashioned waiting, anyway.



Freespace is mad that he doesn't have any "1337" skills. Ignore him.



Post Edited ( 06-03-04 05:50 )


Offline johnc

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Reply #45 - 03 June 2004, 07:12:01
This is awsome.

I just have one question though: How do you calculate the launch date for a direct ascent? I would like to be able to do this
with other spacecraft, but I have no idea how.


Thx

Johnc



Offline AphelionHellion

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Reply #46 - 03 June 2004, 08:28:01
Awesome!!!
Now we just need a "direct DEscent from ISS"  :)

Lets face it, re-entry is tougher to do manually than ascents, mostly because there's the everpresent danger of
turning yourself into a cloud of smoldering debris. Or maybe I'm just a crappy pilot :(

Has anyone managed a DGIII re-entry without using hover-thrusters or main engines en-route to slow your delta-V or
rate of descent? Even if I hit the atmosphere at a VERY low vertical speed, it seems I eventually slow down enough
that I can't skim the atmosphere anymore and "fall" down to about 55 k or so at which point the atmosphere is dense
enough to cause the hull temp to skyrocket (no pun intended). It seems like the DGIII burns up well before any visible
plasma forms. Is this normal? Does anyone know if there's an optimal slope and AOA to aim for?
I've done plenty of launches, interplanetary transfers, station intercepts and dockings, but I never could get the hang
of those re-entries. It certainly is a lot more challenging when you're not "invincible" as in most of the spacecraft in
Orbiter.

< [yellow]C[/yellow]arpe [yellow]N[/yellow]octem! >

Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #47 - 03 June 2004, 09:32:53
Okay, thanks for all the feedback, it really is a rewarding feeling, first, that the things works, second that you like it
and third, that you give me positive feedback :)

So let me answer all one by one:

Quote
About trigger I hallucinated.. your voice said "engine cuttof" at the exact
second it cutted off, Your ascent program ROCK, it set 350km right on the money
This WAS my major concern. If the autodescent were not so reliable and consistently brings you to the same point in
space, you can time the voices perfectly. So you program ROCKS :)

Quote
-the radio CFG seem to not work properly, as said before it set 000.009
instead of 000.911 at start.
I corrected that. It should be the correct frequency in the ZIP now.

Quote
-there is already five men aboard, you must jettison one before being able
to rescue Leo Farawitz, would be nice to remove one men in the scenario
to make room for him.
That was on purpose. I didn't know how it will affect the ascent program if I remove 1 person's kilograms out of the
picture, so I left 4 people in and now you have to decide to let one out before Leo gets on board. The other person
has to go back to the station by its airlock :) Just a sort of real-life catch thingy. I can remove the person and see
what happens.

Quote
-you speak about 175.61 but it was more 173.61 or so when I launched
at the exact time (when you say go) I bet this value is a bit too sensible to
rely on it... perhaps you might remove it from the doc and say instead
Hmm. Check again. The TrL value for ISS orbit. It SHOULD be 175.61, because the whole success of the approach is
based on this single number being the same everytime. But I agree, the actual time of launch, like 8:18:30 MET is a
lot more practical for the user. I will change that.

Quote
My personnal wish: some more wav before ending the sound sequence
the first catch when the ascent program end is 600km, the last instructions
are a bit too condensed for my taste and some more wav to explain with greater
detail would be welcome. (and perhaps some ambiant voice or voice from the
I know. That is because I was in a hurry to make the scenario public and also I planned to make a .pdf with detailed
mission instructions, so the voice would only be a reminder. It would save space and increase game performance
(long .wav files take time to load and affect the game). But I guess a few shorter files, nicely sequenced would do the
trick.

Quote
Also would be cool that the last wav state really clearly that it will be the
last radio communication. (perhaps because the earth station isn't in sight anymore?) So we know that now we are
really free to change focus and do whatewer we want.
Agreed.

Quote
If you want to avoid the "sequence restart" bug when you switch to Leo
you can state in one of the last wave that one must set frequency to MSS (any empty frequence)
before switching (consistant with the docking wave)
That is what I did when testing and that is EXACTLY why the zip files contained the "empty" .009 frequency :) Will
make sure I take care of that.

Quote
Too bad that the radio sequence restart when you switch vessel, this IS
resolved in the OrbiterSound 3.0.
It's the STATIC variables again eh? :)

Quote
Ability to put a saved frequency to load per ship in the scenario.
so each time you switch vessel a different sequence may start.
that would be beautiful!

Quote
and very few people use it. A triggered system would take me even longer to do
(months?) and I'm not sure it would be more used. (and you know I don't have much
time yet)
Okay, forget it than. It's not as important. It would be fun, but not worth the extra worth. You can combined timing,
docking and frequency changes well enough to go around the problem :)

Quote
PS: I never saw the "engage turbo" msg from autopilot, I passed 1000 before I engage it
perhaps you can voice it instead ? I know I must engage them but it might be confusing
for other peoples. Anyway at least you can push the message to ALT 1490 in the PRO904
it will be less sensible.
I removed it, becuase the voice tells you to activate turbo pump. It says so at the same time it says to engage the
ascent program. Doesn't it? But I will add it to the program at a lower altitude. Something like 500m, at the same
time the voice tells you to engage it.

Quote
T+45: "Earth station, we are almost out of range, salute Leo for us when you meet him, good job End
of all radio communication"
Or "Okay, we've done all we can, you're on your own from now on. We will not send any more transmission to
distract you. Good luck! Huston out!" :)

Quote
Perhaps you can supply also the config.cfg located in sound/dgIII ?
I didn't know it was in there. I'll do that :)

Quote
A countdown with your voice would be really nice instead of the stock one...
Heh, there's a practical reason why I didn't include more sound. I feel really stupid to record myself and even more so
if my girlfriend is at home.. :) If you don't know the context, hearing someone go: "ready for takeoff, launch in 30
seconds. All systems go." is REALLY weird :)

Quote
Freespace is mad that he doesn't have any "1337" skills. Ignore him.
1337 skills?

Quote
I just have one question though: How do you calculate the launch date for a direct ascent? I would like to be
able to do this with other spacecraft, but I have no idea how.
Check this page http://orbiter.vidmar.org/direct-ascent.html

At the end of the page I explain briefly how you create an ascent program. Once you get the program to put you in
the right orbit, you must find the best launch azimuth. If you are launching from the same location, the current one is
okay. Now you have the last point. WHEN. What I did was, I timed the whole ascent stage. In the case of this
scenario it is about 706seconds. So all you need to do then is determine how much the ISS moves in the SAME
amount of time. Using some relatively simple formulae or just plain trial-error you can get to it in no time. Now you
have to connect both locations (ISS and DG3). You know that both craft must be at point X (interception) at
T=706seconds. Now you know the location of the Dg3 at T=0 (the launch site). What you don't know is the location of
ISS at T=0. One way or another you calculate the distance the ISS travels in 706 seconds. So now you know where
ISS is at T=0. If the orbits are close enough to be almost coplannar (low RInc), you can probably simplify the
calculation by just using the TrL (True Longitude). This piece of information tells you where the object is currently on
its orbit. The reference is the same for all objects (I think it is the meridian) so if you say that ISS is at TrL 180 and
the DG3 is at 270deg, you know that they are 90deg (quarter of an orbit) appart.

Back to your calculation. You have both launch locations. You need to determine the TrL of each starting position and
then their difference. Then you get the answer: The DG3 must launch, when there is X degrees angle between it's
starting position and the ISS orbital position. Then you need to wait for the time, lock the MET and you have the
launch date/time. My numbers are not accurate, because I did not take into consideration bigger issues like Earth
surface curvness, the additional speed you gain from Earth rotation by launcing eastwards and the Coriolis's forces,
and other things which all possibly effect the end result to some degree.

Now I'm sure there is a more elegant, possibly simpler way, but I am not skilled enough in math to invent it. Perhaps
someone else will, now that we have a basic model. I hope to put together a more explanatory manual with some
pictures to illustrate this process. I think it would be good to develop some kind of mathematical model and include it
into Orbiter base distribution, because launch windows play a major role in space operations. And not only in
interplanetary flights. The shuttle's fuel margin is so constrained that this kind of model would enable it to minimize
alignment and synchornization fuel costs a lot ;)

*Doc is planning to equip the shuttle with this sort of approach* Only with the shuttle the constraint is that the
current autopilots get you to a really low orbit. But if you had the ISS, say 45 degrees ahead of you, you would really
only need to push yourself a little further to intercept it half an orbit later. I tried that using the Transfer MFD, but
didn't get any conclusive results yet.

Cheers and thanks,
Janez


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline DocHoliday

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Reply #48 - 03 June 2004, 09:39:26
Quote
AphelionHellion wrote:
Lets face it, re-entry is tougher to do manually than ascents, mostly because there's the everpresent danger of
turning yourself into a cloud of smoldering debris. Or maybe I'm just a crappy pilot :(
True, but I am not an expert on reentry. Not enough to attempt this :) But I think the descen autopilot is quite simple
enough to use without any additions.

Quote
Has anyone managed a DGIII re-entry without using hover-thrusters or main engines en-route to slow your
delta-V or rate of descent? Even if I hit the atmosphere at a VERY low vertical speed, it seems I eventually slow down
enough
I usually manage to do that, BUT I either overshoot the landing site or lose speed too rapidly and then fall short.. But
let me ask you this. Do you have the LATEST DG3?? Because there used to be a temp bug, that made the DG3 burn
up upon reaching 500deg or so. This is now more like 1500, which makes it a lot easier to reenter. Especially if you
follow the instructions (see some threads, one that Michi wrote and some others on the topic)

Quote
I've done plenty of launches, interplanetary transfers, station intercepts and dockings, but I never could get
the hang of those re-entries. It certainly is a lot more challenging when you're not "invincible" as in most
of the
Same here :) I think it IS a common problem, since Orbiter itself is quite limited in documentation on how to reenter
and land if you noticed. This area is REALLY not explored and gathered into a consistent methodology.

Cheers,


~~~

"Mood is a matter of choice. I choose to have fun!" -Vidmarism No 15

Offline AphelionHellion

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Reply #49 - 03 June 2004, 09:53:10
Doc: Wow! Teach me, oh master!
:wor:

Nope, I'm afraid I have the new version with the fixed temp bug. So I can't blame a glitch :)
Perhaps I'll experiment around and see if I can nail down some optimal angles and vSpeeds. Tomorrow ;)

"Descent autopilot!? I don't need no steenking descent autopilot!"  :)


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