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[AphelionHellion]

Democracy is just a hidden dictatorship, whom have the money and access to media control
people's mind and can justify almost anything. Most peoples don't have any science, political,
history, psychology or soceity study That's easy.

A bit cynical today, Dan?

Sometimes I actually do believe that that's the case ^
But I'd rather not :0P

[DanSteph]

AphelionHellion wrote:
Sometimes I actually do believe that that's the case But I'd rather not :0P

As you sometime, depend on what I've read I think even worse, anyway most of time I think
that life will always win, that people get more inttelligent and that things will go better.

Anyway I would give immediatelly my left arm to have a look 500 years or mores in the future.
Heck I'm a die hard Asimov and psycho-history fan. (sci-fi writer)


Dan



Post Edited ( 05-28-04 02:58 )

[freespace2dotcom]

Actually, Dan, that quote you gave is one of my favorite quotes, and I believe it's my sigi whenever I send an email.
And yes, I know that for the longest time, a generation was closer to 20, but I'm not really talking about way back
when. I'm more or less referring to the last 100 years or so, you know? I won't get involved with what I think of what
happened in oklahoma city, the  Murrah federal building. all I will say is that None of the members of the (CIA or FBI,
It could have been the BTF too, can't remember at all) showed up to work that day, and none of their kids showed up
to daycare that day either. Something like that should set off alarms, but nothing happened. There are other things,
but I'm not going into detail. The point is that people will let anything happenif it's subtle, but eventually, things will
be so blatantly obviously crappy that people will wake up left and right, only to realize that it's too late.

[AphelionHellion]

Freespace: Eh, I dunno about that Oklahoma city building thing. Now I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but
there are very few of them that seem to be substantiated enough to put energy into. The "All ATF workers didn't show
up when the OKC building was bombed" idea sorta strikes me as unnervingly similar to the somewhat newer "No Jews
showed up for work at the WTC on 9/11" rumor that's making the rounds in the Arab world (and parts of Europe,
unfortunately). Just because something is easily disproved doesn't mean people won't still spread it around

I hope I don't come off as condescending, but I was your age relatively recently and I remember being very interested
in conspiracies of all flavors. I've either become more discerning since then or more cynical and apathetic  -  take your
pick Anyway, trying to make sense of current events can easily occupy all the time that you're awake - I've tried
(and failed).
The ultimate goal, I think, and also the most difficult, is to find the middle ground - don't believe everything that comes
down the pipe, but don't arrogantly dismiss anything that you may not totally agree with, either. Better living through
science
It's tough, but I'm working on it


PS: So how many years old is this thread, now?  

[freespace2dotcom]

yes, yes, I know.. forgive me, maybe it may just be youth. but hey, I'm not perfect. And yes, I'm a mild consipracy
theorist, what with the belief that people could project thoughts into our minds if only they wanted to, etc, etc... (you
laugh, but that's ok. ) I don't know what to make of that day. but it just seems suspicious to me. Actually, I never
have been to oklahoma city, and so I could have just as easily have been wrong. regardless, even if it was just one
big coincidence. (And I'm willing to give that) the government didn't hesitate to pass laws that limited freedom after
it.  Then again, maybe all governments do that after such an event, but I sure don't like it. (sorry, again, if any of my
posts seemed a bit harsh. I'm bad at that..)

This thread is only what? 1/24th of a year old? Gotta love fractions!

Slight edit: Yeah, I forget to label some of my opinions as such, and so people might label them as fact. I see that after re-reading my last post, but I hope that nobody take me too seriously.. hehe it's too early in the morning for me to think about this too hard. but to close, I do believe what I had said earlier, but people will believe what they want to believe, whether the truth is in front of them or not, right? that's just human nature, we're all stubborn, with me being the most.



Post Edited ( 05-28-04 08:47 )

[AphelionHellion]

I wasn't trying to be antagonistic or anything - I'm just in a skeptical mood this year I guess.
Perhaps I've been reading too much badastronomy.com  
*heading back over to the "Orbiter Stories" thread*
Fun!  

[AphelionHellion]

PS: Do you ever watch Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Free?
It's on right now and I was just wishing that someone would put together a ship based on that little thing the two
smartass little mean Moon aliens ride around in.
Or those other two aliens, the orange one with the accent...
*not good with names*

Heh, today's is the one with the cloned mothman brownie monsters

[AphelionHellion]

Ignignoct and Ur! The mooninites!

*realizes that this all sounds like total insanity to those who haven't seen the show*

[freespace2dotcom]

Eh, my cable company blocks that channel, and since i'm not about to pay for TV, I'm content with public broadcasting.
not that I really watch TV anymore. although my favorite of those was the one where shake made all those pop ups,
really cute.

[DocHoliday]

Heh, I should spend more time on the forum. I'm missing opportunities to chip in my coins

Anyway, too much has been said for me to pick up easily, so I will just add my thoughts to some of yours. You realize
most of us (that do post) have a similar opinion about all this.

About the frog effect: I agree completely, this principle can be applied on almost anything, and coupled with Goering's
rendering, you could apply to it to America. Now, I've heard, that there are rumors of changing the Constitution of
your contry. Of course, you can't go and do it, so you do it gradually. You show foreign nationals as bad, you make
sure that people are to confused to decide about anything, you also bombard people with false info on most subjects
so they really can't make head and tails of anything. Then you create new departments (like Homeland Security) with
shady authorities, inheriting rights from multiple organization that existed before (like FEMA) and joining them under
one banner. Incidentally, I'm pretty sure, multiple organization are more expensive to maintain, BUT they act as
security valves for one another, so things don't get out of hand. With the HSD you basically get a nuclear device with
just ONE activation key... Now having said stuff about getting people confused, at the right moment, you insititute
laws that limit freedeom, because people don't REALLY use them. Like voting, deciding on issues, etc. If they never
use a right, they won't even miss it, goes the logic. And you do this gradually, and one day, decide to institute
hereditary leadership in the good ol' US of A and people WILL of course revolt, only to discover that they have no
instrument left to execute a legal political change of government, becuase while they were asleep, their rights
were "turned off" with theif passive consent. The only option then is make or break. Obey or start a revolution. I still
have faith in the American people, specially people like you Free, to go with the revolution. Becuase as things go, that
will be the only option left.

About the conspiracy theories of any kind: It is perfectly logical for people to TRY to assume power and quite possibly
at the expense of others. Also it is quite easy to set up a network of conspirators. BUT... if you goals and
organization function on greed and power, then all internal relationships among the conspirators will function the
same way. Everybody blackmailing eachother and quite possibly the original founder of this type of organization will
be removed and replaced by another. Now the problem is, that with the new leader, the original goals of the
enterprise are also lost and the organization exists then for its own sake, making new goals or just leeching at
society through the power it has accumulated up to that point... My point. If you create a conspiracy and have "valid"
goals, that deal with the good of the people/nation, you are quite likely to have an organism, that in fact can have
any leader (in case they are removed or killed) and it will still follow the path. Which is why I believe if you compare a
global conspiracy of any kind (by it corporations, politics) to a local group (green activists, even terrorists - which is
wrong, but this is an argument), the local group will usually have "better" and firmer goals and will be more
successful. But then again, when the victory is achieved the group should disband, but they never do and you get
another goalless and leaderless group which remains the aftermath of such conflicts... IT's all a very predictable
pattern, and it DOES serve humanity as a security valve. Think most communist uprisings in the world. starts as a
good idea, ends up a dictatorship. Is killed by a democratic underground process in the end. Think Microsoft, starts as
a vision of a PC in every home and when this is achieved keep on going for the f*** of it - pc is not enough, now I
need MS car, and MS toiller paper that crashed on my ass every time. Get's destroyed by people's refusal to be
sucked into purchasing new useless products. Big dinosaurs of organizations get destroyed by small determined
mammals, and then they become big and get destroyed by something small and new yet again. Fortunatelly this is
progress.. Now if you read 1984, you realise that when a big organization is able to keep its position, destroying
effectively opposition, progress stops and is frozen in time. It all comes down to Hitler's own saying: Such good
forture for people, that masses are dumb.

Oh and on the subject of democracy and communism or whatever: in their pure form, these systems are ALL good.
BUT they lack one important thing. They are all MODELS, approximations of reality, simulators as it were. And people
forget that. Especially would-be leaders. The systems are based on certain assumptions, that are valid for certain
circumstances, populations etc. For communism, one major assumption and flaw is that people are not greedy and
egotistic, that they will take only what and as much as they need, which is wrong (think Animal Farm). For democracy
one assumption is, that people will want to be involved in the political process all the time and actively contribute to it
(think as far back as Caesar's Roman Republic). They do not.

Both flaws produce the same unfortunate result in reality. They leave a hole for dictatorships to arise. Either through
localizing power by acquiring goods and withholding them from others in communism or through abusing the people's
ignorance and lack of interest in politics to promote change that suits you alone, plus rising in power through
political/economic interest connections.. All systems additionally can (ab)use nationalistic tricks to gain, motivate and
direct people.  If people were not greedy and would take interest in common good, BOTH systems COULD work
equally well.. and nationalism would be obsolete anyway. But alas, on both these subject precisely american society
is the weakest, because their society is both based on material acquisition and individual interest.. so there. But
not to condone America (it is not the cause, it is the effect), the human nature itself is NOT altruistic and NOT about
common good. It is about acquiring most food, resources and best partners for breeding and creating best
circumstances for our offspring to do the same. Sure, we try to deny it and do things differently, but given a good and
safe chance, we usually revert back to lower brain functions. Nature is cruel, we are cruel, so the world is cruel.
Period. People like you and me, talking and believing as we do, are, by all practical definitions, freaks of nature,
socially unadapted to the world and might perish if subjected too much to people who are tuned in to the way the
system works. And we are, every day at work, school and socially. Of course if there is overwhelmingly enough of us,
things might move. You know fully well, that being lazy will not get you money and girls. That by being wise and
smart, you will not convince people to follow or be with you. Sure for a while, but in the end, given a choice, they will
always "elect a new, strong Chancellor".

I've spoken

Cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

very good, doc. It's not that you don't come to the forum enough, it's that I spend too much time.. Actually, I believe it
was president Jackon that said: "If the people knew how much the bankers were screwing them there'd be a
revolution overnight." Of course. The organization of people I have in mind is only intersted in personal wealth and
such, but is composed of people willing to cooperate as equals with each other to screw everyone else.

A house divided cannot stand.

And while I believe a fair revolution every now and again in america (or anywhere else) would be a great idea, those
in power would naturally be against it, and label those who would be for it as terrorists, and lock them away without
a fair trial or anything. They can do this NOW, not in 20 years. I believe that the endgame is very close, and they are
organized and planning, whist the "people like me" are merely discussing it and have no way to counter it.
when "they" strike, it will be checkmate, and I fear nothing can be done about it.

[DocHoliday]

I hope not. I hope, they are not equals and I hope their house is about to start shaking. Otherwise, I'm off to Mars.
And I know what you mean. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? No problem for me, but you could
get in trouble by just posting on this public forum. go fig.

I am really interested to see how your elections will go this year. Been following the general context on
www.consortiumnews.com, which is also a good site, to read up on some of the things you mentioned earlier (like
Panama).

cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

I actually am old enough to vote in elections now. This would be my first time to be able to if I was to choose to vote,
but did you know that the president of america is not chosen by popular vote? instead, the electorial vote is used,
and the popular vote is merely a tool to keep the public happy. I have no intention of bothering to play in such a
thing. I personally feel that the two different "parties" are there to leave people with the illusion of choice, but they
both sleep with each other. It doesn't surprise me that having a third party is something that they resist fiecely.

And about going to mars, I feel that those who are in power will prevent such a trip from being possible until they've
fully established what they want. (a new world order) Otherwise, they won't be able to control the people living on
mars or wherever. very similar to how the english failed to keep us stubborn americans from rebelling because of the
distance gap.

"they" have been planning to take over the world for a while now, or at least the families of the same people have. If
you look up the creation of the federal reserve in america, you'd see that there were nothing but extremely rich
people behind it.  Let me ask you, how much do you know of the treaty of verona? I didn't know much about it, but I
would suggest you look it up, it's interesting....

Well, yeah, it's possible they could find my house, arrest me because of what I say here, and nobody'd ever see me
again, but that would cause them more harm then good. of the people who do know me, they'd know I'm not a
person who'd blow up buildings, etc etc. and they'd ask questions ultimately giving those in power 10 enemies rather
than just me. They'll only do such things If I started making public speeches (which would give me a death warrant,
not one for arrest) or when they're ready to make their move, which will likely include the collapse of the american
economy.  They might very well blame the economic disaster on people like me, and what will I do? either go along
with their system, which likely will be a new global economy based on implantable microchips, or refuse and die?

Yeah, I'm a conspiracy theorist. But every day this becomes more and more plausible as events unturn.

[Simonpro]

Conspiracy theorists keep me amused when im bored.
Every time i have a spare couple of minutes i go off to find some crank with a stupid idea - like the ISS not existing or
planes spraying poisonous chemicals all over people - its too funny for words.

Maybe Mr Bush has a pair of leather gloves, a leather chair and a white cat - maybe he even practices looking in the
mirror, raising an eyebrow and saying "welcome, Mr Bond.":turning:

Or maybe not.
Keep up the good work - my life would be a lot duller without conspiracy theories for me to laugh at.



Post Edited ( 05-28-04 16:05 )

[DocHoliday]

Very funny simonpro. Don't forget we are putting out our opinions here to which every one has every right. Your
opinion is welcome but please refrain from personal attacks. I think Free is quite brave to stick out his point of view,
especially since conspiracy theorists are very stigmatized these days. We'd much rather know how you see things
instead.

Freespace, I read a lot of the conspiracy work and although I take it with a VERY realistic measure of salt, I do agree,
things tend to unfold in a rather "predictable" manner. Now if that is due to a conspiracy, plan, mutual effect of
different situations or just human and nature's way, I don't know.

Either way, if they decided, you were to be eliminated and with they I mean the regular non-conspiratorial
authorities, it wouldn't really matter if 50 people would know and miss you and rant about your dissappearance. In
today's world on a news and public relations level the truth is just the lie that is spoken out loudest and longest
And mock and discredit the ones who know what they believe to be truth. Like conspiracy theorists. It doesn't really
matter if you're right or wrong, if you're labeled as a joke, noone will believe you.

Plus the fear and the temptation to stay in the confort zone and snap back to routine, the things you know. That's
why nothing really changes fast, that's why you can cook your proverbial frog population without them noticing.

Cheers,

[Simonpro]

Please point out the personal attack and i will gladly take it back

I also dislike the "english" failing to do something. There are more than just english people in the UK, dontchaknow -
or is that not a personal attack on those people in Scotland or Wales?
I personally doubt that the voting system is a scam, as otherwise i am sure more than a handful of conspiracy
theorists would've cottoned onto it - unlike the stereotypical image Americans are not all stupid, most are easily
intelligent enough to spot when something isnt right.


I also never suggested we shouldnt be allowed our opinions, or are you trying to blanket mine?

[DocHoliday]

Nothing to point out, nothing to take back. Just setting the groundrules trying to keep the debate informative rather
than agressive.

I personally doubt that the voting system is a scam, as otherwise i am sure more than a handful of conspiracy
theorists would've cottoned onto it

I doubt that too. But at least the us system seem too damn complex to work. Since I am quite unfamiliar with it,
would you mind please telling me how do the public votes relate to the electoral votes and what does electorate
mean or rather who's in it?

Cheers,

[Simonpro]

God knows, i dont really care about who wins the presidential election - no skin off my nose
It probably is too complex to work, but that doesnt mean its rigged - it just means people who dont (or cant)
understand it try to make out that there's a big fraud behind it...

[freespace2dotcom]

whoa, slow down. first. Yes, I confess that I could very well be wrong on everything I said. Now, about "laughing at
my conspiracy theories" is a bit of a sore spot, but I can take it all in good humor, now then, lets see if I can learn
something:

When *was* the UK created? As I am aware of it, it was not made until after america came into being. I mean no
attacks when I refer to only the english, but in that case, I do believe it was more or less true. Of course, If anybody
could fill me in on this, I'd be thankful. No harm was meant either way...

Finally, I say that my "opinion" is that the american voting system is a scam. Like I say, I very well can be wrong. I'm
not perfect. but I do beleive it.

Let's look at it this way:

if you're right and I'm wrong, well, then there's nothing to worry about.
but If I'm right and you're wrong, well, you get the point...

But then, only time will tell.

[freespace2dotcom]

Oh, you both posted again before me? hehe.. Anyways, as I know, the electorial vote is basically all the votes from
those who were already elected into office. (senators, governors, etc) but I'm not sure how the whole thing works
ou. I WILL tell you that I know for absolute certaintly that the popular vote does not matter at all proof of that is that
al gore did win the popular vote in the last elections, but bush won the electorial. there very well is some relationship
between the two, but I personally wouldn't hold my breath. to doc, I will say that assuming that I was killed and 50 people were "woke up" as it were, and they started ranting and whatnot, then that would mean that those in power would have to kill those 50 people, which 50 people for every person, would be 2500. and the scale would increase. that's the point I'm trying to make. it would be better for them if they just left me alone until the priorities shift.



Post Edited ( 05-28-04 17:26 )

[Simonpro]

Actually if you were right i still wouldnt care

Act of the union was 1701, and american independance was 1776 - meaning scotland was joine with england for 75
years prior to america existing.

And i just take everything in good humour - insults, praise, exams, life. If we dont then we'll end up like Tony Blair,
looking old, tired and deflated :p

[freespace2dotcom]

Oh that's helpful.. but what about wales?

[Simonpro]

Wales joined England in 1536.

And i would not comment on the American voting system until you know it in detail, which you admit that you do not...
That would be like me commenting on some biochemical process, and knowning the basics of how, say, clones are
made - but not knowing the details. Can i say that is a conspiracy because i dont understand the details?

Lol, dont answer that question, im afraid of what your response might be

[freespace2dotcom]

well, silly me. It's true that one shouldn't really bash what they don't know, but the same is true that we shouldn't
partake in anything that we don't know either. I merely wish to learn from this. it is very intersting.

but I'm stubborn so forgive me. I do remember that the UK is different from great britain because of some territory
difference, and unfortuately, that is where I based my assumption on... (dumb me.) Anyways, could you clear that up
for me?



Post Edited ( 05-28-04 17:33 )

[Simonpro]

They are both very similar.