[Closed] BETA 3 Of DeltaGliderIV (third beta release)

[Twilight]

streb2001 wrote:
"APU Unit" is tautological, a bit like "LCD Display" or "PIN Number".

That's just like LAN Network!

If you add a new DGIV with the scn editor and dock it with a ship or station it will be docked with the nose
cone
closed causing nose malfuction. Is there any way you could change this Dan ?!

thanks,
Hugo

Add a new DGIV, close SCN Editor, open the nosecone manually, open the SCN editor, dock.

[Travis Reed]

I'm hoping that Dan will add coding for the Editor at some point so that the custom variables can be set from there.

And yes, random failures are something I've been wanting (and remained quiet about) since I first became aquainted with the
DGIII.

[reekchaa]

I really like how X-Plane does random failures too... from assigned keypress to exact countdown for failure, to
random time/chances in addition to exceeding the safety maximums.  For Orbiter, though, the next step (or demand)
would be to be able to EVA and Fix these failures.  But other than recovering for a quick reentry on an unpowered
glideslope (which Dan has already created in his Scenarios), creating a fun and playable 'fix' routine
would probably have very limited appeal once we all did it a few times.

Has everyone been to http://orbiter.dansteph.com/forum/index.php?topic=11591.msg179680#msg179680  yet?

[aus_pilot]

I've not been able to do a re-entry in a single orbit yet, but I'm thinking that if I can drop into the atmosphere and do
little aerbrake, I may be able to do a full re-entry on the seconds pass.

I've also had the same issues as described by n122vu.

There is surely a way to get this bird to re-enter without turning into a crisp.. I keep getting to around 50k-60k atlitude
and having heat issues and/or the issues mentioned by n122vu.

Keep up the good work Dan!

[reekchaa]

fast tip: It's easy to forget that a winged ship simply *stalls* in thin atmosphere, even when going 20,000,000
miles per hour.  By pulling up sharply, past the 40degree mark, the ship just drops faster and burns hotter.  It's
stalling.  Falling.  Leveling out more to the horizon, you'll start to rise.  It takes a lot of time in thin atmosphere to
carefully dissipate all the friction-heat before you can get deeper in.  
Piece that along with a shallow reentry angle ('D'isplay-'2' & 'D3' on the console to verify) and that's all I need to do it.

[aus_pilot]

reekchaa wrote:
fast tip: It's easy to forget that a winged ship simply *stalls* in thin atmosphere, even when going 20,000,000
miles per hour.  By pulling up sharply, past the 40degree mark, the ship just drops faster and burns hotter.  It's
stalling.  Falling.  Leveling out more to the horizon, you'll start to rise.  It takes a lot of time in thin atmosphere to
carefully dissipate all the friction-heat before you can get deeper in.  
Piece that along with a shallow reentry angle ('D'isplay-'2' & 'D3' on the console to verify) and that's all I need to do it.

I was trying just that when I had the constant RCS burning that n122vu had..

[Heywood]

It is the first time that I accede to this magnificent forum, and I do it to be grateful to Dan and rest of collaborators of
orbiter for his disinterested dedication to this magnificent spatial simulator.  

[n122vu]

Not sure what happened to my post from 2 nights ago, but I was able to perform a successful reentry with the DGIV
using Dan's tips from page 2 of this thread:

DanSteph wrote:
-First deorbit with a a reentry around 1.2°-1.6° (D2 for reentry angle on computer)
-Then you can accelerate time w/o autopilot until 130 km altitude or a bit less.
-engage pro104spec40 and watch closely the vertical speed on mini hud or surface MFD.

Vertical speed will decrease slowly from -190 m/s to -180 m/s until you arrive around 70 km high.
The goal now is to maintain more or less -30 -50 m/s vertical speed using INVERSE logic.

It work like this:
with more AOA the vessel stall and the vertical speed DECREASE (You fall more),
with less AOA you start to get some lift and the vertical speed INCREASE (You fall less).

AOA control vertical speed but in inverse logic: raise nose to dive, lower nose to get lift.
The "center point" move as you descend at first it's around 40° (45° ou fall, 35° you get lift)
then at lower altitude this point decrease (at 30° you fall, at 25° you get lift)

The goal is to stay the most time possible around 60km high to spend your speed.
The key is to manage vertical speed with AOA and watch your temp... higher temp lower vertical
speed... and don't let your vertical speed get out of control. Gently with AOA.

Some time the autopilot is a bit weak (I'll rework it) especially at lower AOA & Altitude , you can help it
a bit with joystick.

If you're good at this you can try to maintain a nose temp of around 1200C° all the time varying
your vertical speed beetween -30 m/s -140 m/s with the AOA, this optimise the braking, it take less time.

Of course, I did come up a bit short of the Cape (ok, a LOT short, like 3,000M), which resulted in needing to perform a
powered approach to the SLF.  I probably could have done the descent without bleeding off any energy and still been
a few kilometers short of the ideal spot.

At any rate, it is possible to do a reentry with the DGIV using PRO104SPEC40.

***Edit***
I just realized that the reason my post isn't here is because I posted in the Reentry tutorial thread.  It was around midnight here when I posted, so I didn't remember putting it there...just happened upon it when reading that thread.  Anyway, yes, it's possible to do reentry with the DGIV.  Just takes practice.  One more thing.  Although I wouldn't recommend it, it is possible to do it with the keyboard.........now where did I put that joystick...

Regards,
n122vu



Post Edited ( 01-05-07 04:17 )

[pile0nades]

I found a small bug when a DGIV is destroyed. All of the pieces appear in the Docking MFD target menu, even though they
have no docking ports.

[DanSteph]

Thanks I'll have a look, but maybe it's a MFD bug that list even objects with no dock. (all those objects have no dock and no IDS frequency)

Dan



Message modifié ( 05-01-2007 17:15 )

[Marvin]

Genesis wrote:
I hate to break it to you Mr. I-don't-read-a-person's-post, but the reentry problem isn't with the DG III.  It's with the
DG 4.

.......

Travis are you retarded or challenged in some way?

[ADMIN] This above is unnaceptable here, please cool down ! Ban warning !

I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this before...

Now to my bug: When I tick 'pilots death disables ships control' in the DGIV-config and then kill my crew I can't use time
acceleration any more. On any other vessel I can. This was also on the first beta, I tried it. This didn't happen on DGIII as
far as I remember.

[tritoch]

why does the game crash or have no deltaglider?

[DanSteph]

tritoch a écrit:
why does the game crash or have no deltaglider?

Sorry Tritoch but it took you three day to find the thread where
you can download the DGIV wich was one line below yours, I'm
even not sure you downloaded the right file or installed it correctly.
I can't answer.

Dan



Message modifié ( 06-01-2007 02:02 )

[DanSteph]

Marvin a écrit:
Now to my bug: When I tick 'pilots death disables ships control' in the DGIV-config and then kill my crew I can't use
time acceleration any more. On any other vessel I can. This was also on the first beta, I tried it. This didn't happen on
DGIII as far as I remember.

Thanks, on my todo check list

Dan

[aus_pilot]

Re-entry can be done! I finally pulled off a successful re-entry at around 0815 AUS CDT today.. Was way too short for
my landing site and ran out of fuel on the way there, but at least I didn't burn up on the way in..

[DanSteph]

Congrat !

Dan

[n122vu]

Way to go aus_pilot!  

I came up short when doing reentry myself.  Had just enough fuel to make it in, though.  Wasn't as successful on
Mars, however.  Ran out of fuel before I made it to the base, with not enough velocity to glide in.  Frustrating.  My first
Earth-Mars voyage and it ended in flames.  Still, I love this sim!!!

Regards,
n122vu

[Cale]

Well, I downloaded and tested the DG-IV last night...Dan, all I can say is that once again you've done a superb job!

I tried re-entry using the standard program, but fried like a piece of bacon the first few times.  Then I tried using
Mikey451's AFCS (version 2P1).  After altering the trajectory numbers in the initiation file (Thanks Fort for this), I
actually was able to survive re-entry and land at Edwards without incident.  The caveat was that I didn't have
enough energy to glide in like the shuttle (though I had enough fuel to get me to the runway), but still landed safe and sound.

If you're interested, here are the trajectory numbers to use:

22
100 7600 4500
93 7599 4000
87 7580 3500
80 7575 3000
75 7450 2500
70 7225 2000
65 7050 1750
61 6400 1500
59 6100 1250
57 5600 1000
55 4750 750
51 4200 500
47 3750 450
45 2800 380
40 2200 300
35 1500 200
32 1100 150
30 1000 110
25 750 75
20 600 50
15 500 20
10 300 0

Also, when you bring up AFCS, make sure you set the re-entry distance to between 5.25 and 5.35, and make sure
you have 10% fuel or less remaining.  You'll likely get nose temp warnings, but so far I haven't fried.  I have a
scenario loaded to try this approach.  Anyone interested should let me know and I can email or post the scenario.

Cheers,

Cale



Post Edited ( 01-06-07 17:09 )

[AndyMan]

(Very) Low Temp Re-entry Manuver: Turn Retrograde, fire main engines (plus turbo if you wish), keep in retrograde
autopilot, hold speed at aproximately 1000 m/s (use surface hud if you wish). Discontinue burn once in lower
atmosphere (40-25km) and release autopilot, glide/fly to landing.

Once you get to the lower atmosphere, you have enough indicated airspeed to start gaining controllability, and at
about 1000 m/s or less you are not likely to burn up.

Thats a horrible way to re-enter, but it can be fun, and less challenging than an aero-break re-entry


Now, to Dan, a few things I've noticed:

- Turning while taxiing is very choppy, in that it turns several degrees instantly, then waits a second, then turns
several more degrees instantly. I don't know if this is something you can fix, but just letting you know.

- RCS Auto: The auto setting kicks it into RCS instead of aerosurfaces at a fairly high speed. If I turn it to straight
aerosurfaces, I can get much higher control. (I found this out while pondering stalls and slow-fight the other day.) I
can keep fairly good control of the spacecraft all the way down to 100 m/s with the ailerons and elevators, but when
RCS kicks in, it becomes much more difficult to fly.

- Flying characteristics: It seems that the DGIV's Cl curve maxes out at about 15 degrees angle of attack. Beyond 15
the spacecraft stalls fairly critically. However, it is usually difficult to push the nose farther than 15 degrees AoA in
most flight regimes.

- Animations: The wheels look good while turning. Thanks!

[Cairan]

Eject! Eject! Eject!

My quick comment: When you eject, the autopilot should be kept running... If the flight computer is still running, it should
keep the DG at least wings level in flight... Just my 2 cents.

[EtherDragon]

AndyMan wrote:
- Flying characteristics: It seems that the DGIV's Cl curve maxes out at about 15 degrees angle of attack. Beyond 15
the spacecraft stalls fairly critically. However, it is usually difficult to push the nose farther than 15 degrees AoA in
most flight regimes.

It turns out that this is how all aerofoils behave; they stall at 15-20 degrees AOA, although, even while stalling they
produce some lift. At 45degrees AOA you get almost as much total lift as you do at 15degrees AOA but you cause a
lot more drag. (I read a very interesting article yesterday that sumarized the characteristics of 80 different airfoil
tests, it's uncanny how similar they all behaved.)

[DanSteph]

AndyMan a écrit:
- Turning while taxiing is very choppy, in that it turns several degrees instantly, then waits a second, then turns
several more degrees instantly. I don't know if this is something you can fix, but just letting you know.

Orbiter problem, at the time i added this (DGII or III don't recall) there was no steering function so I had to use a "force" that push. This caused Orbiter to switch from landed to Orbiting status and the choppy you see. Now steering is implemented in orbiter but you get exactly the same choppy result, seem martin used the same method. (addforce)

AndyMan a écrit:
- RCS Auto: The auto setting kicks it into RCS instead of aerosurfaces at a fairly high speed. If I turn it to straight
aerosurfaces, I can get much higher control. (I found this out while pondering stalls and slow-fight the other day.) I
can keep fairly good control of the spacecraft all the way down to 100 m/s with the ailerons and elevators, but when
RCS kicks in, it becomes much more difficult to fly.

Will have a look... Anyway below 100 m/s you are stalled, not sure you would still get much control below this speed.so I need flight test...

Cairan a écrit:
Eject! Eject! Eject!
My quick comment: When you eject, the autopilot should be kept running... If the flight computer is still running, it
should keep the DG at least wings level in flight... Just my 2 cents.

You're right but for that you need thrusters and they are all disabled during ejection, one don't want cooked astronauts.



Message modifié ( 07-01-2007 00:20 )