See site in english Voir le site en francais
Website skin:
home  download  forum  link  contact

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: [Closed] BETA 3 Of DeltaGliderIV (third beta release)  (Read 24175 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DanSteph

  • Administrator
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 15407
  • Karma: 256
  • Hein, quoi !?
    • FsPassengers
Reply #25 - 02 January 2007, 05:55:48
Quote
Travis Reed a écrit:
Now, as to the framerates that Dan requested...
Minimum: ~20 near Earth with L10 tex. Includes on ground. External view. Internal is slightly higher, depending on
what I'm
facing.
Maximim: 220+ in high orbit or interplanetary flight when a celestial body or other (high poly) vessel is in sight.
Internal
or external.

Can you tell me also the average on earth and in space in external and internal view
what you get usually ? also would you say it run good,  or poor in comparison with what you get usually
(if the shuttlePb get 20fps on a special location it's normal that you get 20 also in DGIV)

Thanks !

Dan


Offline DanSteph

  • Administrator
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 15407
  • Karma: 256
  • Hein, quoi !?
    • FsPassengers
Reply #26 - 02 January 2007, 06:08:14
Quote
n122vu a écrit:
At any rate, Dan, no rush on the tutorial/scenario/autopilot, or whatever it is you come up with to help us.  I know I
can survive until then.  


True there is a lot more to do than only reentry :)
anyway the key is to inverse the aircraft logic.

-First deorbit with a a reentry around 1.2°-1.6° (D2 for reentry angle on computer)
-Then you can accelerate time w/o autopilot until 130 km altitude or a bit less.
-engage pro104spec40 and watch closely the vertical speed on mini hud or surface MFD.

Vertical speed will decrease slowly from -190 m/s to -180 m/s until you arrive around 70 km high.
The goal now is to maintain more or less -30 -50 m/s vertical speed using INVERSE logic.

It work like this:
with more AOA the vessel stall and the vertical speed DECREASE (You fall more),
with less AOA you start to get some lift and the vertical speed INCREASE (You fall less).

AOA control vertical speed but in inverse logic: raise nose to dive, lower nose to get lift.
The "center point" move as you descend at first it's around 40° (45° ou fall, 35° you get lift)
then at lower altitude this point decrease (at 30° you fall, at 25° you get lift)

The goal is to stay the most time possible around 60km high to spend your speed.
The key is to manage vertical speed with AOA and watch your temp... higher temp lower vertical
speed... and don't let your vertical speed get out of control. Gently with AOA.

Some time the autopilot is a bit weak (I'll rework it) especially at lower AOA & Altitude , you can help it
a bit with joystick.

If you're good at this you can try to maintain a nose temp of around 1200C° all the time varying
your vertical speed beetween -30 m/s  -140 m/s with the AOA, this optimise the braking, it take less time.

I just tried three time, three successful reentry. Two "low temp" and one "high temp" to
maximise braking


Hope this help ?

Dan



Message modifié ( 02-01-2007 07:25 )


Offline Travis Reed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 354
  • Karma: 0
Reply #27 - 02 January 2007, 07:16:50
Ooops...knew I forgot something...

I tend to average ~70-120 fps with most vessels, including the DGII/IV. I don't tend to notice any major fps drops unless
someone loads a mesh with too many polys. Code uses the system RAM. I've got 1.5 gigs, so, while the machine may not run as
fast as I'd like, it can multitask pretty well (lotsa room to juggle proccesses). My limiting factors for simulations are the
video RAM and the CPU speed (though this only slightly).

My Video GPU is overclocked (to 266 mhz out of the box). I've turned it up to 398.25 mhz with the ATi Tool. The memory speed
is only 195.75 mhz, and with only 256 mb of video RAM, rendering takes a bit and heavy poly meshes (especially lots of them)
tend to drag down framerates. Most Orbiter addons don't tend to have that many polys though, as modelers tend to keep poly
count low. On something the size of the DG(stock, 3, or 4) there aren't gonna be enough polys to cause a problem, unless the
modeler became overzealous and didn't optimize the mesh...or if there are many of them on the screen at once... I can run all
the high spec addons with roughly the same average framerate as listed above, but then again, I don't tend to use that many
ships in a single scenario.


Offline Travis Reed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 354
  • Karma: 0
Reply #28 - 02 January 2007, 07:27:22
Also, I've found an old thread about making a complete powered vertical landing. I've managed to accomplish it as well.

Here's the link: http://orbiter.dansteph.com/forum/index.php?topic=10050.msg161917#msg161917

I've found that -1000 m/s vspeed is too great within 200 km of the surface. At that point I've switched to level horizion
with killrot (to combat the innevitable flat spin) and using the hover engines to control the descent. From ~150 km down I
activate PRO200SPEC8 and let it lower me down at -80 m/s. This does take fuel and patience. However, as long as you can keep
the ship level (avoid the flat spin or die!) you'll make it to the ground. Don't forget the gear...

Landing at a specific base is the tricky part. I still have to figure it out. The idea is simple though, null our your
relative velocity (except vertical) to the base and work your way down as I explained above. Actually managing to get over
this point is a different story (might be able to use BaseSyncMFD if you can get the settings right...).



Post Edited ( 01-02-07 07:30 )


Offline DanSteph

  • Administrator
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 15407
  • Karma: 256
  • Hein, quoi !?
    • FsPassengers
Reply #29 - 02 January 2007, 07:31:08
Vertical reentry may be a funny experience but is not elegant...

I think I'll write some reentry autopilots, I'll get fun to do it.
It will certainly not be a "bring me to base" but at least
a "low temp" and/or "high temp" up to you to know
when deorbiting to make it to the base.

Dan


Offline Runibl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 0
Reply #30 - 02 January 2007, 07:52:56
Wow, a new DeltaGlider. Gotta go download and try it out. This is some nice news to see after being away for a while.


Rúni.

Offline skookum

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: 0
Reply #31 - 02 January 2007, 08:38:44
Is there any chance of reworking the re-entry autopilot so it has more "detents" in both bank and AOA? Sometimes the bank
angle I want lies somewhere between 60 and 90 degrees? Would 5 degree increments in both AOA and bank be too fine? I like
having the ability to "select" a bank angle and AOA through the autopilot, I'd just like more angles to choose from.

Thank you so much for your holiday hospitality: both with this amazing DG update, and through the use of your forum. I know
your intention was to provide a friendly place for Orbiteers to hang out, but I can imagine how unexpected this spike in
membership intrest in your site may be.

Thank you.


I'm a space cadet too!

Offline streb2001

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • Karma: 0
Reply #32 - 02 January 2007, 12:25:56
I agree with skookum about the detents. I have been trying reentries at high bank angles like the Shuttle to increase the
crossrange and the bank angle adjustment is far too coarse. I haven't succeeded yet - has anyone else managed this?

The autopilot does not control the DG smoothly and when viewing the ship with 'target relative' in the region of entry
interface, Earth jumps around and looks rather silly! Is this normal?

Also, the main antenna seems to glow in the dark.

Sorry if this appears nitpicking. This new DG is great fun!

Steve


Offline salva85

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: 0
Reply #33 - 02 January 2007, 15:05:51
Thanks for new DGIV and DGIV Beta 3 Dan Steph!! I use DGIII very a lot, in my opinion, is the best add-on for orbiter (   
after the NASSP ;-) )

At the moment I have not found any error, but I will continue proving.


Offline picto

  • Legend
  • ******
  • Posts: 5014
  • Country: France fr
  • Karma: 24
  • Criiii Crii Crii
Reply #34 - 02 January 2007, 16:10:08
My favorite reentry procedure is to flirt with the max high vertical speed. :)

A little game.
Use the scenario Landed at KSC

Go on a vertical loop with the DGIV like Space Ship One and
go on for a good reentry and safe landing at KSC.
Very fun.
Not so easy that it ssems ...
you wil burn or crash sometimes I think


Pic

Offline DanSteph

  • Administrator
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 15407
  • Karma: 256
  • Hein, quoi !?
    • FsPassengers
Reply #35 - 02 January 2007, 17:32:20
Quote
skookum a écrit:
Is there any chance of reworking the re-entry autopilot so it has more "detents" in both bank and AOA?
Sometimes the bank angle I want lies somewhere between 60 and 90 degrees? Would 5 degree increments in both
AOA and bank be too fine?


On my todo list, I think there will be a "manual" autopilot as pro104 and "automatic" that allow you to choose
beetween a "cold reentry" (lower temp possible) and a "fast reentry" (Higher braking and temp possible without
destruction.)

Not fixed yet anyway, I must make tests.

Dan



Message modifié ( 02-01-2007 17:33 )


Offline DanSteph

  • Administrator
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 15407
  • Karma: 256
  • Hein, quoi !?
    • FsPassengers
Reply #36 - 02 January 2007, 17:37:30
Quote
streb2001 a écrit:
Also, the main antenna seems to glow in the dark.

Corrected (version not available)

Quote
streb2001 a écrit:
Sorry if this appears nitpicking.

No problems, beta are made for this ;)

Dan


Offline Genesis

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Karma: 0
Reply #37 - 02 January 2007, 17:58:50
Quote
DanSteph wrote:
Quote
Genesis a écrit:
Travis are you retarded or challenged in some way?

This is unacceptable on this forum ! I'm very strict with this,
You can disagree with someone or point his errors but certainly not
insult him or threat him.

he was trying to help also and the only thanks was to insult him,
Very bad behaviour  ! I expect that you'll correct that !

Okay, okay, okay!!!

Sorry I insulted him.


Offline Travis Reed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 354
  • Karma: 0
Reply #38 - 02 January 2007, 20:43:56
While we're on the topic of nitpicking...

There's some text on the main panel that could use reworking. It's the green vertically oriented text next to the Main/Retro
engine indicator. The text reads RCS, however the indicator refers to the Hover engine. This is not to bee confused with the
fuel flow indicators for th engines and RCS which are located above. I can post a pic later if needed.

Quote
Genesis wrote:
Quote
DanSteph wrote:
Quote
Genesis a écrit:
Travis are you retarded or challenged in some way?

This is unacceptable on this forum ! I'm very strict with this,
You can disagree with someone or point his errors but certainly not
insult him or threat him.

he was trying to help also and the only thanks was to insult him,
Very bad behaviour  ! I expect that you'll correct that !

Okay, okay, okay!!!

Sorry I insulted him.
So, you apologize to Dan but not to me, eh? *grumbles*


Offline david23

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: 0
Reply #39 - 02 January 2007, 23:23:06
First, hello and thanks for this awesome addon!

I am experiencing problems in the scenario "The tranworld express company" (note the typo ;). If I launch one of the gliders
and set it to ascent autopilot shortly after takeoff, then do the same thing with the next glider and then switch back to the
first one, the animation of the (retracted) wheels seems to be messed up (they stick out of the top of the mesh).

HTH, david.



Offline Quick_Nick

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 446
  • Karma: 0
Reply #40 - 02 January 2007, 23:40:37
Love the higher detail on the skin Dan!
Plenty of 'typo' type things which aren't very important but thought I'd mention them. Probably the translation
between French to English:
transfert-transfer
Ummm.... can't find any others right now actually... :stupid:
Well... Nice addon! :turning:


-Nick

Offline streb2001

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • Karma: 0
Reply #41 - 02 January 2007, 23:51:57
One day soon I will release the addon I have been working on and then I will discover just how annoying nitpicking is, but in
the meantime...

"APU Unit" is tautological, a bit like "LCD Display" or "PIN Number".

Also, Earth scenario/Docked to ISS I notice that O2 tank A is 103% full. Useful!

Steve


Offline DanSteph

  • Administrator
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 15407
  • Karma: 256
  • Hein, quoi !?
    • FsPassengers
Reply #42 - 03 January 2007, 00:22:07
Quote
david23 a écrit:
... wheels seems to be messed up (they stick out of the top of the mesh).


Many Thanks, added on my "todo" list


Quote
streb2001 a écrit:
One day soon I will release the addon I have been working on and then I will discover just how annoying nitpicking
is, but in the meantime...
Steve


Without nitpicking there is no perfection. With it... there is no perfection either but still a better work :)
sorry I don't understand the problem with "APU unit" !?

Quote
Quick_Nick a écrit:
Love the higher detail on the skin Dan!


Hope you will appreciate the new work: I corrected all body maping top error, added all the extra door
(turbopack, antenna) and corrected also the radiator door mapping. Of course all DGIII third party skin
will definitivelly not work (or with many small error) but I'll provide a new SDK and we could'nt
continue with all mapping error that prevented to make good work. (look top Medical blue line on
your version, it look like a snake from behind)



Dan



Message modifié ( 03-01-2007 00:40 )


Offline streb2001

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • Karma: 0
Reply #43 - 03 January 2007, 00:36:00
Quote
DanSteph wrote:
sorry I don't understand the problem with "APU unit" !?

I thought APU is an acronym for "Auxilliary Power Unit". Hence "APU Unit" reads "Auxilliary Power Unit Unit".


Offline DanSteph

  • Administrator
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 15407
  • Karma: 256
  • Hein, quoi !?
    • FsPassengers
Reply #44 - 03 January 2007, 00:37:18
Aaaaah got it... well.... not sure if I'll correct this one... ;)

Dan



Message modifié ( 03-01-2007 00:38 )


Offline n122vu

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
  • Karma: 1
Reply #45 - 03 January 2007, 03:43:39
Quote
DanSteph wrote:
Quote
n122vu a écrit:
At any rate, Dan, no rush on the tutorial/scenario/autopilot, or whatever it is you come up with to help us.  I know I
can survive until then.  

True there is a lot more to do than only reentry :)
anyway the key is to inverse the aircraft logic.

-First deorbit with a a reentry around 1.2°-1.6° (D2 for reentry angle on computer)
-Then you can accelerate time w/o autopilot until 130 km altitude or a bit less.
-engage pro104spec40 and watch closely the vertical speed on mini hud or surface MFD.

Vertical speed will decrease slowly from -190 m/s to -180 m/s until you arrive around 70 km high.
The goal now is to maintain more or less -30 -50 m/s vertical speed using INVERSE logic.

It work like this:
with more AOA the vessel stall and the vertical speed DECREASE (You fall more),
with less AOA you start to get some lift and the vertical speed INCREASE (You fall less).

AOA control vertical speed but in inverse logic: raise nose to dive, lower nose to get lift.
The "center point" move as you descend at first it's around 40° (45° ou fall, 35° you get lift)
then at lower altitude this point decrease (at 30° you fall, at 25° you get lift)

The goal is to stay the most time possible around 60km high to spend your speed.
The key is to manage vertical speed with AOA and watch your temp... higher temp lower vertical
speed... and don't let your vertical speed get out of control. Gently with AOA.

Some time the autopilot is a bit weak (I'll rework it) especially at lower AOA & Altitude , you can help it
a bit with joystick.

If you're good at this you can try to maintain a nose temp of around 1200C° all the time varying
your vertical speed beetween -30 m/s  -140 m/s with the AOA, this optimise the braking, it take less time.

I just tried three time, three successful reentry. Two "low temp" and one "high temp" to
maximise braking


Hope this help ?

Dan

Wow.  Thanks for the very detailed pointers, Dan! :eek:

Especially the "reverse logic" portion.  Too much reliance on my General Aviation knowledge has contributed to my
lack of success in Orbiter, it would seem.  (Ok, ok, my knowledge comes from MS Flight Simulator, but I was an ace in
Physics in school, so I pick up on such things rather quickly)  (and I have flown a small plane before, an AA5B
Tiger, registration....you guessed it....N122VU....belonging to the Vincennes University Aviation Flight dept.).  Now that
I have my degree in Programming, maybe I should go back and reconsider aviation..... :wonder:

Again, no rush on the autopilot.  I like to get comfortable doing things manually before I go with the autopilot.  Gives
me more of a sense of accomplishing something. :)

Thanks again for the tips and for the DGIV.  B-E-T-A - without these letters, we could have no BEAUTY.......:badsmile:



Offline n122vu

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
  • Karma: 1
Reply #46 - 03 January 2007, 05:13:34
Dan,

Just discovered something.  While attempting Re-entry using the guidelines you supplied, I ran into the same issue
twice.  At around 56k Altitude, V~5.5k, I noticed on the upper panel that the angular acceleration for pitch was maxed
out in both directions.  Shortly after noticing this, I lost all control response, the nose dropped to level and VS went
from ~-50m/s to +200m/s and above, shooting me back out of the atmosphere quite rapidly.  

I was able to reproduce the issue.  

Scenario used was Earth Scenario - Docked to ISS, reentry to Cape Canaveral.  Waited until orbital plane passed near
KSC prior to beginning Deorbit procedures.  At around Dist=16M to Cape, executed deorbit burn until estimated
reentry angle was 1.58.  At Alt=130km, executed PRO104SPEC40.  As -VS increased, dropped nose to approx. 30
degrees and adjusted accordingly to maintain approx. VS of -30 to -50 m/s.  As course had placed me north of KSC,
banked 30 degrees right at approx. 65km to begin turn toward KSC and bleed off energy.  At around 56k, began to
notice "flutter" or "rapid-fire" in sound of RCS.*   As is also true near ISS, during the time that this sound was heard,
controls were barely responsive.  However frame rates did not suffer during this anomoly.  Same is true near ISS.  A
quick look at the upper panel revealed the situation described with the angular velocity readings.  After returning to
main panel, attempted to raise nose to decrease VS and continue descent.  While adjusting the autopilot setting to
+40 degrees pitch, the nose dropped to level and VS climbed rapidly.  

*(It should be noted - the same stutter/repetitive sound is heard when maneuvering DGIV near ISS.  Graphics also
seem to be "jumpy."  Have found that this only occurs when MFDs are on screen.  Moving to upper panel or turning
power to MFDs off eliminates this.  Ironically, monitoring performance reveals no change in framerate during this
occurrence).

Not sure what is causing this anomoly, but could be partly the reason I'm finding it difficult to bring the DGIV back to
Earth.

Let me know if you need more info.  I have a screenshot but no place on the web to load it.  It only shows the
angular velocity near max at pitch down, as the gauge was oscillating rapidly between pitch down/pitch up.  

Regards,
n122vu



Offline salva85

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: 0
Reply #47 - 03 January 2007, 15:47:02
Hi! I was playing FS X when I have realized a good idea for the DGIV!! You can add a outer menu, like the Dg4config, for
customize random failures in DGIV systems, thus more interesting and if you cannot fix it you can to use the emergency exit!

Anythings for failures:

 - Electrical (except cell fuel)
 - One or all engines
 - One or all hovers
 - Anntena
 - Solar array
 - Gears
 - Escape in depostite of fuel or rcs
 - Rcs
 - Computers
 - MFD
 - Airlock
 - Nose Cone
 - etc

In my opinion, the FS X is more interesting with radom failures!!! (also DGIV will be!!)

Excuse me for my english!! I'm spanish


Offline darkvoid

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 47
  • Karma: 0
Reply #48 - 03 January 2007, 16:05:29

If you add a new DGIV with the scn editor and dock it with a ship or station it will be docked with the nose cone
closed causing nose malfuction. Is there any way you could change this Dan ?!

thanks,
Hugo



Offline willy88

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
  • Karma: 0
Reply #49 - 03 January 2007, 22:41:28
Quote
darkvoid wrote:

If you add a new DGIV with the scn editor and dock it with a ship or station it will be docked with the nose cone
closed causing nose malfuction. Is there any way you could change this Dan ?!

thanks,
Hugo


Switch to it and open the nose cone.


_________