[closed]Electric system on DG III or IV

[Buran-Pilot]

Hi
i just wondered, do the generators have limited power? because i even flown to saturn - and still had power.

Do you have to save power by shutting off unneeded instruments?
Would be a cool idea to put in the config menu genarators to choose - like unlimited, high power (for interplanetary
travel) and realisistic (14 day mission)

Would that be too much to put in the DG IV release?

[DanSteph]

I should put that in a FAQ

1st problem is that a third limited ressource (1st fuel 2nd o2) will complexify a bit more
the DG wish is still yet a vessel for anyone and easy to manage. Flight can last from
1 hour to 5 years so one would have to careffuly planify a flight to not get out of
power. As comsumption can greatly vary one would probably come out of power 1 or
two years before or after o2. Difficult to make setting that last an average planned time.

Still it would be possible to do that with some buttons & display to help manage power ressource
but here come 2nd problem is that there is no logicall place anymore on the panel for
such things, the power panel on top is full and adding the power on the bottom one
would not be logical and confusing. It's all about ergonomy.

3rd Of course I can redesign enterely the upper panel but then I'll need at least one
week of work and redo completely a part that is already done instead of working on new things.
A big work for a very limited advantage.

1st+2nd+3rd= no limited power managment.

Hope this answer ?

Dan

[Tachyon]

How about  a simple "you run out of fuel = no power [after a 120 second reserve]" gives the pilot time to prepare
for ?  8o

[Buran-Pilot]

Hi
okay, get it - you try not to overcomplex the glider.

but about the design: you could put in the status of the generators on the Boardcomputer MFD on the bottom Panel -
though could be a bit confusing...

[Twilight]

Tachyon wrote:
How about  a simple "you run out of fuel = no power [after a 120 second reserve]" gives the pilot time to
prepare
for ?  8o

Arn't generators connected to the ship's main engines?

In that case, you would also need "Engines explode = generators fail"

[Quick_Nick]

Man-power powered generators! Unlimited electricity! until you run out of food I suppose...

[Tachyon]

Twilight wrote:

....aren't generators connected to the ship's main engines?

Actually if properly modeled they'll be discrete turbines connected to power generating plants as well as air
compressors and hydraulic pressure pumps. Most modern aircraft have these APU's. They're small turbines 15-75
pounds in weight and can generate 65-125hp. Given their power to weight ratio you can see why they're used. I'm
not 100% on this but I do not see why they would necessarily have their own dedicated fuel supply. Or at least if
they did there'd be a cross feed system as well. For simplicity sake that was why I suggested a "run out of main fuel -
no APU" after a short duration of say 120seconds.

[david23]

Hi there!

I would really like to see some sort of power management in the DG!
It would make it an even more complete experience than it already is!

Here are some of my ideas:

 - on the complexity issue: limited power could be a configuration option that is off by default. this would allow people who
want that kind of complexity to activate it.

 - on the panel placement issue: i don't see the generators as a part of the electricity system, more as a supplier to it, so
i wouldn't mind having the controls for the generators and their resources somewhere else (like on the lower panel where
theres more room)

 - another thing that i would even like to see if there is no limited power: a status display of how much power the radiators
generate (possibly plus an autopilot that turns the ships upside towards the sun)

see ya, david.

[boltex]

fuel consumption of generators not implemented?

I i had never ran out of fuel, so i didnt know the generators, gen1 and gen2, did NOT consume fuel and/or O2, and
did NOT shut down, (forcing you tu use batt. or emergency power)

please make so that generators use up a small amount of fuel when generating electricity, and shutdonw when fuel
empty..... !

(i did some test orbiter coding and without offence, it is super easy to do)
if gen1state=on then substract fuel_genratio*time_elapsed_since_last from reserve
(subsract also ship weight, etc... if not automatic from fuel remaining)

...or am i not understanding what gen1 and 2 are supposed to represent ???

[boltex]

sorry to repost so soon, but i had some other points to add to the electric system discussion...

why does dan says it would add some buttons to the interface? i dont see why!
just add the code in your dll so that it spends fuel. why add another resource or buttons???

thanks for reading me, thanks much more for making the DG !!!!!!!! (best orb plugin by far)

[boltex]

jamais 2 sans 3....

just thought about the radiator.... im afraid to ask but... what does it do? is it only esthetic?

I strongly agree with the guy who posted earlier: should be instead a solar panel which would provide a volt/amp
depending (linearly) on angle (top of ship) versus the sun (and distance from sun= intensity multiplier.)

just some ideas. ... congrats to dan again for the DG4!!! wonderful

[DanSteph]

Problem is that probably every user of DGIV have is own idea of what I should
add/change and think it's "so simple" to add. (wich is not most of time, only a few
of them are programmer)

What the point about a system that you can't control ? just to have failure
due to lack  of power that you even didn't know that it was limited and that you
can't control ? So at least there will need a display clearly visible (not hidden in
computer menu somewhere, because nobody read doc (when there is one)  
also you need a predicting display so you can manage the reserve , warning if you run
low on reserve etc etc...

Now it should also be listed at least in the DG4config, because you can set 15
day 2 years or 4 years O2 reserve. You say I can set the electricity based on O2 setting ?
Ok but user will not be aware of this ressource as it's not listed anywhere and as carefful
user can use 100 time less power than another some may run out of electricity long time
before O2 run out while other may never notice the ressource was limited.  So I max
electricity reserve ?  Based on what ? 4 years O2 is for full crew, it can last 8 years
with half crew... and it depend also of breathing. So 8 years ? then what's the point ?
Practically it will be as unlimited ressource then appart for rare case.

So either you'll always experience power failure when you don't want it either
you'll never notice it.

Electricity based on fuel reserve ? ... and ? if you don't have fuel anymore you are
dead anyway appart if you are landed so what's the intterest ? This will simply
null your chance to have a rescue ship getting to you as you'll be dead immediattely
when fuel is empty.

So the "so simple" end with modification of dg4config, new display on panel wich will be
at a strange location, modification of onboard computer for predictive value and
managment of power reserve, whole section in doc about how managing this  etc etc etc etc.
a one month work and hundred of "so simple" line of code.

This can be boring also for the majority of user that don't want to manage this
so I must now maybe add two version of panel wich mean a lot of modification in code
(what the point to have instruments that have no use are not at a logical location on
panel and can confuse peoples?) Also if it's boring for the majority this mean my work
would have been a waste of time.

In short word: it's impossible to set a reserve that will last automatically a "fair time" in comparison
of other reserves. Even if I can do that (cheat), you would have to manage them very carrefully
using each system wisely and make constant adjustement. For this you must have new and precise
instruments. Also this may not be as fun as you think at first.

-click click "too much" click click ...
-"not enough" click click ...
-"system unavailable because it was shut down" click click "ooops use to much power" click click...
-"one more crew ?" click click "one less ?" click click ....
-"ooops forgot to shutdown this system..to bad I'm dead again"
-"ok on my way to saturn I'll go eat" ...  "ooops they are all dead ... what happened ?"
-"what ? there was a limited ressource ? never noticed it"...

Hope this answer now ? You cannot do aproximative work you must think about ALL situation...
This is exactly what take a lot of time and a lot of line of code.

Dan



Message modifié ( 06-01-2007 01:48 )

[boltex]

thank you so much for reading what are just small ideas from the top of my head
(i have nothing to say about O2-N system, it's perfect, same for buttons)

now, about the electrical system :

Electricity based on fuel reserve ? ... and ? if you don't have fuel anymore you are
dead anyway appart if you are landed so what's the intterest ? This will simply
null your chance to have a rescue ship getting to you as you'll be dead immediattely
when fuel is empty.

well, not really, consider if you will,  that if you came near jupiter after a year, you would not have relied on running
generators with your fuel all the way... you would have used generators to take off and power big ship systems.
when staying in space for a *relatively* long time, it would be advised to open some kind of solar panel (rename the
radiator?) , power off everything exept lifesupport. (solar panel could, theoricaly, only juice up main lifesupport)
when near jupiter, start apu and at least a gen, start up engines, computers, mfds, etc...

the idea i had in mind was more like : keep the O2-N system and button layout as it is, but make gen1 and 2 use up a
very small amount of fuel. rename the radiator "solar panel" and make it provide just enough V and amp to power
lifesupport.

Note about simplicity : you have good points about the ship ease of use and providing a cool flight experience for new
orbiters and first-time flyers trying out the DG4....

 but let me propose respectfully that a flight to LEO, the iss, or even the moon, would not require the setup
described above... because a couple days of generators relying on fuel would not really make a big notch in the fuel
reserve... so it could be "forgotten" without repercussions, making a "beginner" flight to the iss and such still easy
and simple.

...just some ideas and toughs I had reading your reply, you made the best plugin so far that's why everybody is
saying "do this" "do that" ! !!  

[Tachyon]

David didn't make sense - Boltex however did - and I sorf of agree .... I've asked myself several times if the radiator
actually "did" anything. Or if the Generators running would impact my fuel or O2. From  a programming standpoint
what does it represent in coding and time to implement Boltex's suggestion.
Radiator = solar panel for life support and maybe minimal systems.
Tie generators into fuel comsumption?

[boltex]

just out of curiosity here, i was also wondering what it would represent, in terms of coding time...?

[Cairan]

Well, the argument against limited hydraulics and electric resources can be turned around. Just to play devil's advocate,
what's the point of having to "click" an APU and GEN1/GEN2 button if they don't impact any aspects of the mission. If you
don't activate them, you don't go anywhere... And besides, having 2 generators when 1 can feed all the electrical loads,
which can't fail in any manner, is also pointless, isn't it?

I don't see electrical power finity as pointless. Neither more or less pointless than crew consumables. Which brings the
question: Why simulate N2 resources if it takes an insane amount of airlock repressurization cycles to actually empty the tanks?

Why aren't water resources included then? Or food?

Once you open the box of system simulation and integration, "clickers", as I self-describe myself as belonging to that group
of users who love switch-flipping, it's hard to justify why one consumable is simulated and not another.

Again, I join others to express what great addons your releases are, but it's just constructive criticism...

I'd be happy to code the whole power and heat management if given the chance! First and foremost, amps are used as current
measurements, not power, and the fact that the start bus, the EPU and fuel cell run on 48 V whereas the gens provide 96V is
... interesting.

I'd love to include in your model the dynamics of heat generation and rejection. With a limited cooling capacity and limited
power production, incentives appear to reduce consumption to bare essentials except during manoeuvers...

I won't get into details here, but I've given a lot of thoughts to these issues and did a lot of paperback calculations.

Anyway, it's not as if we want you to code Stefan-Boltzman equations in there... Just to give an incentive to flip those
power switches on and off for a purpose!

[DanSteph]

Of course I can add so much system and managment in DGIV that you would
need to fly with the 200 pages doc next to you to simply take off. Problem is
that this is not the point of DGIV wich remain a ship for anyone and also I work
already since three month for free and this is not possible anymore for me.
I'm independant programmer and I now loose a lot of money to make the DGIV.

I must now finish the DGIV. some autopilots to make, bug solving, some animations, skins,
doc, probably a one month work where the reasonnable way would be to stop
immediattely and work full time for my payware.

Don't get me wrong I love to code for Orbiter but I feel now idiot to put my
familly's future at risk just to please peoples.

Dan



Message modifié ( 06-01-2007 18:21 )

[reekchaa]

Everyone hear that?

When My babies are crying, it's not time to say, "Daddy's busy on the computer, honey..."  It's time to get up and
help out the family.  Simple evolution.

It's now time to Appreciate, and learn by example what Dan has created for us in Orbiter... and to check out the really
cool addons that Dan makes as payware, too.

[jer11]

8o ---System message---                                                                              The batteries have limited power?
                                                                WARNING:G exess
                                                                Batt low on power <----Wow! i cant start a gen if low on power.(in space )
                                                               G-Loc
                                                               Jeramie Long. Is unconscious



If the epu is not conneted.

The epu and the gens have unlimeted power. Not  the fuel cell, it cant be recharged:(....
Besides that..... Opps... Jeramie Long. is dead, he died of hunger in the ship. where is the food? Is there a onboard hospital on the glider ?
and how the gider mesure the crew's heartbeats?

:sad:R.I.P Jeramie Long.

French:---System message --. - Les piles ont limité le pouvoir ? L'AVERTISSEMENT : le niveau bas de Batt de exess de
G sur le pouvoir <----Wow! je pleurniche le début un gen si le niveau bas sur le pouvoir. (dans l'espace) Jeram
ie de G-Loc Longtemps. Est unconiness



Si le epu n'est pas conneted.

Le epu et le gens a unlimeted pow. Pas la cellule de carburant, il pleurniche est rechargé. ... En plus cela. .... Opps... Jeramie Long. est mort, il est mort de faim dans le bateau où est la nourriture ? Il y a un onbord hostpital sur le planeur ? Et comment le gider mesure les pulsations de l'équipage ?



Post Edited ( 01-08-07 01:29 )

[Cairan]

Dan,

Quick suggestion: put a Paypal button on your Orbiter page so we can show our appreciation in a measurable way for the cool
addons you do... You deserve it.

Just Orbiter Sound is at least worth it...

If everyone who likes to have sound and/or loves to fly the DG with your variations put into it pay you even 1$, I guess your
worries would be swept off a little! :P

[DanSteph]

Cairan a écrit:
Quick suggestion: put a Paypal button on your Orbiter page so we can show our appreciation in a measurable way
for the cool addons you do... You deserve it.

Already tried the "donate" button for DGII and OrbiterSound...earned US$ 17.00 in 8 month, bouton removed

Dan



Message modifié ( 06-01-2007 19:40 )

[Cairan]

Darn... That makes one think about putting nag screens back into action...

[sunshine135]

DanSteph wrote:

Already tried the "donate" button for DGII and OrbiterSound...earned US$ 17.00 in 8 month, bouton removed

Dan

That was before I got involved in Orbiter. What a shame. Who do I write the check out to and where do I send it?

On a lighter note, I don't worry about running out of electricity. I figured that the generators utilized some form of
fission to provide power. What I want to know is, how does a 5-year supply of food fit into the Glider anyway? Hmmm?

I'll even buy off on the drinking water being a byproduct of the generator process, but no way you are telling me that 5
years of food can fit in the Glider. I don't care how "freeze-dried" it is.

Besides that... Where is the bathroom and the shower? What's the deal you never have to go?

"Capt. John Doe is dead! He held his bladder too long!" 8o

[DanSteph]

Well, they eat... you know... err... recycling... and they don't wash at all...

Space travel is sometime demanding
(what about mixed crew with religion that prevent contraceptive pills ? 15 child after 5 years ??? )

The DGIV will be completely realistic if you use the new very
low engine setting (You can't forget take-off from earth) 15 day O2
and "ISS" fuel setting. In this case it's a kind of LEM with reenter abilities...

Would have been too bad howewer to write 30'000 line of code and limiting
the vessel so much, so the config allow big travel also at a spend of some (many?) realism.

Dan



Message modifié ( 07-01-2007 03:08 )

[boltex]

oh, i forgot to mention: these are suggestions ..., not to "push what I want" in the next beta of the dg4, of course!

back to the subject, more precisely , about the buttons on the top panel:

the "gen1" and "gen2" buttons seems to represent electrical generators (for the ship's systems) running on fuel... if a
small amount of fuel was taken at each "cycle" of the main loop... it would be a great plus for realism without making
the experience complicatd for a "newbie" because it would not impact on a small voyage (to the iss, moon, leo, etc...)

but an medium-advanced user going to jupiter would appreciate the fact of having to open up the radiator-solar-
panels, leaving
only lifesuport, before using time acceleration of 100000 for the long trip.

of course that would mean renaming the radiator->solar panel and having it deplyed would make a small amount of
electricity showed in the top panel (where the volt/amp is usualy displayed)

I hope i explained clearly why it would not affect the "new-user" experience (he could forget the generator usage)
and also that it does not affect the placement of buttons.

Thank you for reading
respectfully
p.s. please keep the discussion to the point of electrical components of the dg4, thank you
meaning = please abstrain from commenting that dan could implement a thousand other futile things, if you catch
what i mean! (ashtrays, minibar, cd-player, wipers, etc...) hehe