A Tribute.

[DocHoliday]

I bought one Force Feedback joystick a while ago, I think it was Genius. The Z axis (yaw) died after
6 months and started messing up the Y asix as well and the throttle didn't react smoothly. I was
told later the key word was GENIUS joystick Never tried an MS.

But let's say I don't want force feedback, becoz it makes too much noise and my computer is the
bedroom and the missy doesn't appreciate the racket  And no, I can't move it to another room
What would you suggest then?

[MattNW]

DocHoliday wrote:

> I bought one Force Feedback joystick a while ago, I think it
> was Genius. The Z axis (yaw) died after
> 6 months and started messing up the Y asix as well and the
> throttle didn't react smoothly. I was
> told later the key word was GENIUS joystick Never tried an
> MS.
>
> But let's say I don't want force feedback, becoz it makes too
> much noise and my computer is the
> bedroom and the missy doesn't appreciate the racket  And no,
> I can't move it to another room
> What would you suggest then?
>
>


I'm very happy with my Saitek X-45. Seems to be holding up well and it has all the added functions
you could ever want. Don't even use many of the buttons with Orbiter. I got it mainly though for
MS flight sims but it works great with Orbiter also. I got mine for about the same price as almost
any good stick +- $80. If you consider bang for your buck it's got most others beat. It also
installed easy. Just make sure you have the latest drivers. Don't use the ones that come with it.
Go to the Saitek website and download the latest.

[DocHoliday]

Saitek you say, I'll check. I'm not sure we have'em available over here. I assume it's a USB
connected? Coz I lost my game port with the last machine's sound card

[MattNW]

DocHoliday wrote:

> Saitek you say, I'll check. I'm not sure we have'em available
> over here. I assume it's a USB
> connected? Coz I lost my game port with the last machine's
> sound card
>
>


Yep, it's USB. Real easy to set up too as long as you have the latest drivers. Took me about five
minutes from unpacking to flying. You might want to check them out online. I got mine from their
website. I've seen lesser joysticks for sale around here for the same price I paid.

Oh I forgot to mention it's a HOTAS (Hands On Stick And Throttle) two piece style stick. Works
fantastic with MS Flight sims and it's just one notch less desirable than a rudder pedal set for
flying helos. The rudder control takes a little getting used to. It's a rocker switch on the underside
of the throttle but you'll get used to it fairly quick. I like it that way better than a twist grip.

[DocHoliday]

Yeah, I think the underside rudder might be more convenient even though not as intuitive, while
playing Xwing or some flight sim. Also, if you have the twist grip, the switches get screwed faster
and the rudder and roll control mess eachother up. Try to yaw, but get rolled instead or both
erratically. I've had this happen to at least three joysticks so far.

I'll check, thanks for the heads-up!

[canadave]

Hey matt--you've reached your bandwidth limit for this month.  Please upgrade.

(Hmmm....how could you have reached the limit already?  It's only March 2?????)

Dave

[Simonpro]

I have a saitek cyborg joystick, which has a twist yaw thingy. After about 1.5 years of using it the
twist went byebye.
Of course i emailed saitek and they (surprisingly) said "well, we can't actually fix it, as it is out of
warranty, and of course you are not allowed to tak eit apart. *But* you might like this wiring
diagram which shows you which wires to fix..."
Sure enough, a bit of sellotape and a pair of scissors fixed it right up

Btw, using the yaw never seems to affect roll here, but i think the main issue is the positioning of
the joystick, as if you put it in the wrong place it is very hard to twist your wrist the right way
without also inducing an unintentional yaw motion...

[Krytom]

How do you get the FPS info and res info in the top hand corner? I'm having trouble finding it in
the manual. Help would be appreciated.

Krytom

P.S.What is a good/normal frame rate?

[DanSteph]

Press the "i" key for the info then press
press the "F" key for the framerate.

Edit: I would say 37-40 is a nice framerate

Dan

[reekchaa]

A good framerate is one where you can't see each updating frame.
Video runs at 30 fps, while film goes 24 fps.  Console videogames shoot
for 60, but you can't really tell the difference in anything over 30.

If it's not annoying yet, the frame-rate's pretty good, I say.  

[DanSteph]

About framerate for game and movies, things aren't equal at all.

In a film the motion is blurred while it's not on computer anim.
This fact make that computer need higher framerate to achieve what
seem for our eyes a smooth animation.

           

So most people can tell the difference beetween 30 and 60
Also this have nothing to do but most game as fs2004 "hang"
on some frame so if the framerate is higher this will be less
noticeable.
The problem come that to achieve an equal movement beetween
frame you record the time it take for each frame to be constructed. (delta time)
The problem is that you always get this "delta time" for
the LAST frame, not the incoming one.   Say that your image show a 3d guy
scrolling, each image take 5ms to be constructed so you move the scrolling
by 1 meter each frame, suddenly a house appear in the field of view,
problem the last Delta Time you have is still 5ms while your incoming
image will take 7ms to be constructed: image hang because the displacement
based on 5ms is wrong. The next image will be right but what if the house
disappear ? again wrong.
This is why even with a framerate of 100 sometime the anim in Orbiter seem
to hang sometime.

The solution as do most 2d game is to lock the framerate so you have a constant delta time. but for a 3d game it's not a solution.

Things aren't simple for 3d game until we have computer so powerful
that we can lock the framerate. (but even in 2030 I bet that many
people will still have low end computer)

PS: this is why Console often get smoother animation - programmer
don't have to deal with various configuration and can predict how much
time a frame will take to render, they can even lock the framerate.


Dan

[MattNW]

>Yeah, I think the underside rudder might be more convenient even though not as intuitive, while
>playing Xwing or some flight sim. Also, if you have the twist grip, the switches get screwed faster
>and the rudder and roll control mess eachother up. Try to yaw, but get rolled instead or both
>erratically. I've had this happen to at least three joysticks so far.


Actually I have the top rotary on my throttle set to rudder also and that's what I use the most. It's
better than the rocker since I can dial it in and leave it there. Makes it great in FS2004 for
crosswind landings.


>Hey matt--you've reached your bandwidth limit for this month. Please upgrade.
>(Hmmm....how could you have reached the limit already? It's only March 2?????)
>
>Dave

It's that free account. they delete it every 90 days so the pictures you post are only temporary
and I'm too broke to pay for picture hosting.

[DocHoliday]

Okay guys, thanks. I guess I'll try the slide rudder.

Simonpro: About the yaw/roll mixing up. I know the mixup could happen if you use the stick in an
awkward position, but the thing it, when you try to calibrate the thing, it jumps up erratically even
in the neutral position. Then you try to just move it left and right and you get induced yaw
movement as well. Never mind, I threw the thing away anyway. I do like the saitek tech support
though

Hey Dan: How does the animation work on the LCD displays? The refresh frequency is not an issue
there, so I'd assume this also affects framerate to some extent? Or is it just CPU/graphics?

Cheers,
Janez

[DocHoliday]

Oh, and additional note. Sad story.

The other day, I got the three guys back to the moon from the spinning DG3. I had just landed and
got all four of them onto the Moon base alpha launch pad to enjoy the view, when some nifty
movie started on the TV. I went to watch it and as I came back all of the astronauts lay there on
the pad, dead, out of air. What a way to go... and all that for a movie.

Cheers,
Janez

[Pierre, LFPG]

Hi Janez "DocHoliday"!

I'm running Orbiter on a LCD display at 60fps, and I sometimes get a "blurred" effect (like on DanSteph's
movie picture)... but it's very rare and only occured when I play with external view, and when there a
high contrasts.
For example, looking a Earth from Outside, and "panning" with arrow keys, when sun is in the field of
view, I see a little "tail" behind sun's position. But that's the only case, and in now way it's a
noticeable effect whilst flying normally from inside in over 99.99% of the time. But I also guess this
effect was worse on "first generation" LCD screens, the "remanence" was 1s or so I guess.
Sorry you killed all your pax just to watch a (stupid?) movie on TV... hoperfully for real they don't
catch TV on the moon!

Pierre, LFPG, STV1010
http://mapage.noos.fr/b744-PS13/cockpit.html

[DanSteph]

Doc wrote:
Hey Dan: How does the animation work on the LCD displays? The refresh frequency is not an issue
there, so I'd assume this also affects framerate to some extent? Or is it just CPU/graphics?


CPU/graphic , the display isnt an issue here
it display whatewer the graphic card send to it.

Dan

[DocHoliday]

Pierre, I heard about that, since LCD draws the display differently but the new monitors are much
better especially the PC LCDs.

J.

[MattNW]

>I do like the saitek tech support though.


That's how I learned about the updated drivers. I couldn't get the profile program to run on XP
and called Tech Support. No automated phone system no wait. After two or three rings the phone
was answered by a support tech and he told me to download the new drivers. End of call. I was
on the phone to Tech Support about thirty seconds and the problem was fixed.

[DanSteph]

I don't follow the LCD hardware news because I still think that a good
LCD is really expensive, anyway I'll buy a new computer the next month.
and I still hesitate...  I need a fast display (game) that have right color
(graphism) and that will not broke my eyes (>5 hours a day of work)
that is big (equivalent of a normal 19'') and under say ... mhhh 300$ ?

Any advice on this ? does this exist for the price ?

Dan

[Aqua]

Pierre, that effect is called ghosting and was pretty common for earlier lcd's. Its still there on some
cheap new lcd's too.  Its because the pixel response time is too high. Lcd's don't have a refresh rate,
it doesn't need to redraw the image a set number of times per second if nothing changes. The only time
the liquid crystals need to move is if the color/brightness of the pixel changes. It occurs during high
contrasts or fast movement.
Basicly, If the pixel can't change between too colors fast enough, the pixels may not have completely
changed to display an image when the next on comes up. This makes parts of previous images stay behind
for awhile. If it is and object that is moving, ie the sun,  you will see a trail of previous images that
slowly get dimmer until it is the black sky that it is supposed to be.

I'm afraid you're out of luck, dan.  http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2004q1/lcds/index.x?pg=1 This is a
recent review of several lcd monitors. It'd seem that at that price crt monitors would still be a better
deal.

[Cracker]

Dan,
I just got a Sony 19" lcd display. It is very nice, Orbiter runs beautifully on it, as does MSFS2004,
and LOMAC.

Athlon 2 Ghz, Geforce FX5600 256 Mb, 1 Gb DDR400. Nice.
Thanks so much for the DG. The view from near StationV, with a couple of astronauts* floating
between the rotating spokes, is astounding.


*Shania Twain, and Cindy Crawford.
Regards,
Cracker

[DanSteph]

Aqua: I think I'll stick to crt for my next computer

Cracker:
with a couple of astronauts* floating
between the rotating spokes, is astounding.
*Shania Twain, and Cindy Crawford.

I'll start immediatelly a transparent suit add-on

Dan

[Cracker]

Dan,

"I'll start immediatelly a transparent suit add-on

Dan"

That would be, in my humble opinion, a realistic requirement worthy of hundreds more of your
personal hours of frustrating coding, but might just overstress the individual picture elements in
my new Sony SDM HS93 monitor.
On a more serious note, it was kind of pricey, ~$800 U.S. at Best Buy. I was just tired of lugging
my trusty but very good NEC 19" CRT, which I believe weighs around 500 kg. ;-)
I have moved 8200 miles over the last 12 months, and have had 7 street addresses in 5 different
states, embracing all the time zones available in North America.
This wonderful piece of software and the community that has formed around it are a tribute to the
human spirit of community, and have brought me countless hours of wonder and enjoyment.
You, Dan, in particular, have contributed greatly to its' overall enjoyment value, with Orbiter Sound,
and the DG.
On a MUCH more serious note, who can I add to my astronaut roster, considering the transparent
suit add-on that you will have finished by the time I get home from work today, around 6:00PM
PST?


Regards,
Cracker

[UAF_Lt_Brenton]

How did you get the beta of the next Orbiter version Dan?

[Pierre, LFPG]

Hi UAF Lt Brenton!

I think Dan got the Orbiter Beta... simply because he develops addons for Orbier, and is one the the
people who're most involved in addons developements for Orbiter Community.
That way, he can report some bugs to Martin, and also ensure compatibility for addons! ... sure if DGII
and OrbiterSound 3.0 run fine on his Beta, all addons will run without any problems known the levle of
complexity he has acheived!
A Beta-Tester isn't only here to benefit newer versions before other... but more to help debugging and
improving before official releases!
Hope it helps!

Pierre, LFPG, STV1010