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Author Topic: (closed) Removal of the Shuttle Fleet  (Read 20650 times)

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Offline David413

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06 March 2012, 01:20:24
There seems to be a lot of chatter regarding my recent decision to retire development of the Shuttle Fleet and remove my add-ons from Orbithangar.  Most of the recent posts seem somewhat mean-spirited, which just seems to affirm my decision that it is time to move on with my life.  I find it particularly amusing that one individual seems to think that by escalating his baiting of me I will somehow relent.

Why did I decide to retire development of the fleet?  Why did I pull all of my add-ons from Orbithangar?  Those two questions actually have two different answers.  Allow me to explain.

I decided to retire development of the fleet after almost ten years and literally hundreds of personal hours spent developing, modifying and documenting the various fleets for the simple reason that I find myself at a point in my life where the hours being spent are no longer worth the investment.  Early in 2011, I contacted Gazza and requested permission from him to use his meshes from the STS payloads (only his meshes and textures) and after receiving permission, I began to code the shuttle to include a tilt-table and spin tables for the deployment of early shuttle payloads as developed by Gazza.  I spent months of my free-time coding these enhancements, and just prior to a release I was contacted by another individual that was associated with the original STS payloads.  In a vulgar and very annoying series of Emails, he informed me that I did not have his permission to use any meshes from STS payloads unless I also gave him credit.  Since I have dealt with this individual before, I felt no eagerness to have another series of "debates" with him, since on prior occasions he would always end any discussion by swearing and threatening me.  I didn't need the hassle, so I shelved the release along with the changes I made to the GPCMFD in support of the payload deployment ability.  I have always made changes to the various fleets first and foremost for my own use and myself with a release being provided to share these items with others for free.  This was one change that unfortunately will always remain a personal one.

Regardless, I continued to make changes to the shuttle working when I could towards a release as my time permitted.  I have always tried to provide adequate documentation for the various add-ons, and found it increasingly distressing that newer users would try an add-on, have a "problem", post a bug report when all along their "problem" was a specific feature, documented in the manual.  When I could, I would always attempt to answer the concern by in part pointing to the specific section of the manual where the answer could be found.  But, lately by the time I saw the posted issue, another user had already posted an answer without detailing where it could be found in the manual, or worse, a wrong answer.  I would have much rather that I would have been allowed to speak for my add-ons than have someone provide an incorrect answer.

These items were beginning to make me wonder why I was spending time working on maintaining the various products and attempting to provide updates and features asked for by users more than spending my time making the changes I wanted and flying the various historical missions I wanted to simulate with accurate orbital elements.  I was beginning to resent some of the demands of users, particularly those items I considered "eye-candy".  Those who have followed my add-ons over all these years know that I'm more about the simulation than the visuals.  I enjoy flying rendezvous and dockings, and quite often visual changes led to framerate hits that I have always tried to avoid.  Some of the most framerate friendly add-ons were from years past and no longer worked with the latest Orbiter version, so after making sure that there was no objection from the previous developers, I would update those add-ons and release new versions that were fun to fly.  But then, almost immediately the only feedback I was getting was how poorly these add-ons looked; never mind the historical accuracy of the orbital simulations.  

Now I know that many of you are thinking, "grow a thicker skin", but that's easy to say when you haven't spent hours of your own time making something that you think folks will enjoy, only to have the majority of the comments provided be complaints.  I'm 55 years old, I have a thick enough skin thank you, and I would rather that you just don't download or use the add-ons.  If you want to spend your own time making competing add-ons, please do.  I'd rather fly the missions.

So, I retired development of the various fleets with the intention of making only those changes I want or need to support my own amusement and enjoyment.  I had no intention of pulling the add-ons, only to suspend public development.  Then something happened that did piss me off.

Suddenly add-ons began popping up on Orbithangar that were quite simply minor tweaks and edits of the various textures associated with the shuttle fleet.  That, in and of itself would not be that annoying, but proper credit wasn't being given for the original textures, and these "add-on" authors weren't even contacting the original authors of the textures or myself and asking for permission.  That seemed a little crude to me.  I reported this to Orbithangar, and was told that if I could provide the authors names, the Hangar would make sure that the individual responsible for the updated textures corrected his add-ons.  I failed to understand how it was my responsibility to do this individual's work for him.  It should be noted that this particular add-on creator had earlier posted an item that subsequently was removed for copyright issues and I felt that until this person corrected the most recent of his add-ons they should also be removed.  When I questioned this situation on the Orbiter Forum, it turned out I had violated one of the numerous rules and received an infraction warning.  For defending my add-ons and those who helped create them.  That was the last straw for me, I was done posting add-ons at Orbithangar and removed my add-ons.  Until there are tighter rules regarding the use of other people´s work, particularly without permission, I will not contribute to Orbithangar.  I have been looking around the past couple of weeks for an alternate upload location, but I haven't found any suitable site.  Quite frankly, based upon the recent postings on the forum, particularly the personal attacks to me, I'm not in any hurry.  The community has changed over the past few years, and I'm afraid it hasn't been for the better.  It says something profound that I couldn't have posted this explanation there for fears that I´ve violated some rule and would suffer another infraction and possible ban.

Thank you to all who have been kind and enjoyed these add-ons over all these years.  It has been a hell of a ride, and I have enjoyed it very much.  But, all good things do come to an end, and I no longer enjoy myself as much as I used to.  It is time for me to move on, I look forward to the Space Shuttle Ultra and will watch it develop to fill the niche previously held by the Shuttle Fleet.  My best wishes to all of you...

Dave

I would appreciate someone posting a link to this explanation on the Orbiter Forum.



Offline Bibi Uncle

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Reply #1 - 06 March 2012, 06:52:19
This is sad news, but I understand your opinion. I thank you for all the work you have done on this wonderful project. You provided Orbiter's community such a great time simulating shuttle missions. You have been a stimulating person for Orbiter, and I, and probably many others, thank you very much.

Your work was greatly appreciated. Once again, thank you Dave.

Your post is now linked at Orbiter-Forum here: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?p=342405#post342405


Bibi Uncle
"Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky
Tongue-tied and twisted just an earth-bound misfit"

- Learning to Fly, Pink Floyd

Mireille :love:

Offline Scruce

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Reply #2 - 06 March 2012, 10:49:37
It truly is a wonderful addon, way up the ladder at the top with AMSO, Vostok and Dan's addons.

Your work will always be appreciated, and I understand your reasons for moving on.

Thanks Dave,


Scruce.

Offline Pyro

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Reply #3 - 06 March 2012, 16:34:25
That's too bad. I loved shuttle fleet... Cant'you Upload it instead here ? Even if we're the francophon addon comunity.

Thank god I keep all my addons in a safe place in case of an event like this.

I'm still sad I haven't downloaded the latest patches...



Post Edited ( 03-06-12 16:35 )




Offline n122vu

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Reply #4 - 06 March 2012, 18:52:26
Thank you, David, for the hours of enjoyment I've reaped from flying the Shuttle Fleet.  And thank you for taking time to explain, even though you don't owe anyone an explanation.  It's your addon, your work, your passion.  If sharing it with others results in this, I say the hell with it and keep it to yourself, or share it somewhere else.  

Good luck in your future mission simulations, and take care.

Sincerely,
n122vu



Offline jacquesmomo

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Reply #5 - 06 March 2012, 19:06:28
Quote
David413 a écrit:
I would appreciate someone posting a link to this explanation on the Orbiter Forum.
Done.

Too bad ...but I can understand your point of vue...
I hope you'll find a solution. Thank you again for this add-on among the 3 best for Orbiter (DG4, AMSO... and Shuttle Fleet !!)

Quote
David413 a écrit:
The community has changed over the past few years, and I'm afraid it hasn't been for the better..
It is not wrong ... but it is a minority, I think :wonder:

I hope to see you soon... and your add-ons.
:wor:


Mes add-ons sont l !

Offline Mantis

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Reply #6 - 06 March 2012, 20:20:19
Sorry to see you go David.  Your work has made Orbiter that much more enjoyable for me.  I am sure that those of us who appreciate the hard work you put into the Shuttle Fleet vastly outnumber the morons who do nothing but complain.  Unforunately, I think many of us form a silent majority and I can see how frustrating it must be to deal with the negativeity - especially since most of it tends to come from people who have not contributed anything themselves.


Offline Bibi Uncle

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Reply #7 - 06 March 2012, 21:54:49
Orbiter-Forum's thread was closed (you still can read it), due to improper arguments. Martin Schweiger posted:

As people have noticed, David413 has recently decided to remove his addons from Orbithangar. While this may be a disappointment to many, David is of course entitled to manage his addons in any way he likes, and this should be respected by the forum members. Since David has taken the discussion of this topic over to orbiter.dansteph.com, and since we here at orbiter-forum can't shed any light on his future plans for his addons, it would be more productive for users to continue this discussion over at orbiter.dansteph.com. Please note that discussion of staff action is, as ever, not permitted here or in any other thread.

Therefore, all discussions about Dave's decision should continue here.

I'm not an administrator, but considering the reaction on Orbiter-Forum, please write responsibly. We are not here to blast O-F's administration. If you have any problem with it, please contact O-F administrators in private messages.

As in the previous posts, let's respect Dave's decision, and thank him for all the work he had done.


Bibi Uncle
"Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky
Tongue-tied and twisted just an earth-bound misfit"

- Learning to Fly, Pink Floyd

Mireille :love:

Offline Pagir

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Reply #8 - 07 March 2012, 02:48:04
Thank you very much David for your wonderful shuttle Fleet. It's one of my all time favorite.

Your work is one of the gem of Orbiter. I hope you'll be able to find a suitable host for it.


Pagir

Offline Mantis

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Reply #9 - 07 March 2012, 02:59:42
Excuse me while I step up onto a soap-box for a moment.....

I think that it is terribly unfortunate that the authors of two of the most widely used and enjoyed and detailed addons for orbiter - the Shuttle Fleet (David413) and AMSO (ACSoft) both encountered so much negativity and nonsense that they both felt it necessary to pull their work from Orbithanger and withdraw from that forum.  I really think that some people need to really think hard and re-evaluate their attitudes toward those who put untold hours of work into developing these wonderful addons.  People need to realize that developing, testing and supporting these things takes a lot of time and effort and those who do it are volunteers.  Their only "payment" is the thanks that those of us who enjoy their work give them.  People need to stop being so demanding of fixes and changes.  People need to start being thankful for the addons given to us by such dedicated developers as David413, DanSteph, ACSoft, jacquesmomo and too many others to mention on the Orbiter Forum, here on the Francophone Oribiter Community and the vibrant Italian Orbiter Community as well.  Above all, there are some out there who need to drop this sense of entitlement that they seem to have towards these addons.  I suggest that some people consider how much they paid for these addons (nothing) and compare that to what it costs those who create them in terms of time and effort and either give thanks for their work or simply say nothing at all.

....Stepping off the soap box now.



Post Edited ( 03-07-12 03:03 )


Offline n122vu

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Reply #10 - 07 March 2012, 19:01:41
Well said, Mantis.



Offline jgrillo2002

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Reply #11 - 07 March 2012, 21:01:44
I seriously think the shuttle fleet should be put back on, because I just lost it due to system corruption, and I have no way of downloading it, let alone David keeping it for himself



Offline Fox-Terrier

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Reply #12 - 07 March 2012, 22:28:41
it's a shame that  you have to stop programming those addons but thank you for all your work and time you spent on it


Offline Keatah

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Reply #13 - 08 March 2012, 20:52:17
Basically everybody involved in this needs to grow up. I deal with this nonsense on a continual basis and when "software" is handled in this manner; it quickly fades into irrelevancy soon enough. As an end user I see this as whining and complaining. Child-like behavior. The taking of one's school lunch and similar likeness. Part of of being an "armchair" developer is managing the petty bickering and pilfering that is part of the scene. If it can't be handled, then by all means make way for someone that can manage the issues.

As a sidenote - each Add-On should be an independent work. When Add-Ons make use of other material, that other material has a controlling interest in your work.

2nd sidenote - not related to this post. Vaporware, regarding some Add-Ons where previews are shown for an extensive amount of time (1-2 years) and no actual release is present. Well, that's almost the same thing. It also fades into insignificance. These screen-shot previews serve little else than to bolster the developer's ego. We've had enough stroking in the community as it is.

Sorry if that's harsh, but it is what it is.



Post Edited ( 03-08-12 23:33 )


Offline jgrillo2002

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Reply #14 - 09 March 2012, 19:24:30
Quote
Keatah wrote:
-snip-
Kid, you dont know half of David's history. I understand your intentions but theres no reason to rage at us for something that we didnt do



Offline Keatah

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Reply #15 - 09 March 2012, 22:58:10
Perhaps not.


Offline jgrillo2002

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Reply #16 - 11 March 2012, 19:52:14
Ok. he did the same exact drama back I believe in 2007, because he was being pushed by trolls. then he brought the addons back but he wont give support.



Offline james200809

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Reply #17 - 23 March 2012, 03:25:16
its a sad day for everyone now that you left:(you will be missed i hope you come back to orbiter mods one day with a new shuttle fleet:)


james L

Offline David413

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Reply #18 - 23 March 2012, 23:28:30
Quote
jgrillo2002 wrote:
I seriously think the shuttle fleet should be put back on, because I just lost it due to system corruption, and I have no way of downloading it, let alone David keeping it for himself


Well Zach, what it the truth here?  Elsewhere you have already offered to provide ALL of my add-ons to someone else, and here you claim you lost the most recent SF release?  Please refrain from any further messages, they seem to contradict themselves.



Post Edited ( 03-23-12 23:35 )


Offline Codz

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Reply #19 - 03 April 2012, 10:49:30
I am very sorry to hear of your decision to leave the addon development community, but I respect it.  I would really appreciate it though, if you could repost Shuttle Fleet 4.8 because there are a great many addons that require it and it is such a great piller of the Orbiter space shuttle experiance.  I completely understand that you don't want to continue support, but it would be nice if it was just available for download to newcomers or those who lost their copy(Such as myself).

Thank you for all your contributions.


"Magnificent desolation."-Buzz Aldrin

Offline iz7z

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Reply #20 - 05 April 2012, 04:39:13
look man you think u wasted your time but it isnt if it was something you enjoyed!
this thing is new to me but what i see yall working on is a virtual space!! even to be accurate.

i appreciate all the ships i have seen and i know that alot of work is gone into these things all i can say i appreciate anyones work with orbiter.

sometimes its not a hobby but a passion.


deke

Offline sunshine135

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Reply #21 - 05 April 2012, 14:52:53
David,

I thank you for many many hours of enjoyment with the Shuttle Fleet, and I also understand your desire to pull the add-ons. Over the years, it seems like the Orbiter Community has gotten a bit more disrespectful of people's time and efforts, but then again, the world itself has seemed to become uglier lately.

I just want you to know your add-ons have been much appreciated. So, once again, thank you.


"Sun Dog"

Offline Kyle

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Reply #22 - 07 April 2012, 00:06:54
I just registered just address my feelings on this issue, as this is a true loss to the game. Some may recognize me from the orbiter-forum.com site.

 I'm about to turn 18 and on the verge of graduation, but I've been playing orbiter since 2001. At the age of 10, I knew what an apogee was, perigee was, ect. And for I don't know how many years, I've flown every single day, without fail or exception, even when I went to visit my grandparents house and downloaded the game - I played ShuttleFleet, I flew the Space Shuttle, I made my own missions and soared in the sky and imagined I was free of this atmosphere. I flew the HST servicing mission 2 years before it happened, I imagined making my own space stations with ShuttleFleet, I imagined saving other space shuttles of shuttleFleet with shuttles, I even one time when I was younger tried to figure out a way to put SRB's on the heatshield of a shuttle and tried to send it to the moon (This was my first moonshot in orbiter, it failed so badly lol) ShuttleUltra is good, infact it's excellent yes - but it's not ShuttleFleet. In Ultra, everything is too complicated to have fun. The point is, this addon was part of my childhood, like the Star Wars movies. Every day this addon has existed, I've flown it. It was almost more than an addon to me, it helped me improve my lacking skills of math and my understanding and focus in school to BE at graduation like I am at the cusps of now.

The point being, David please, reconsider at least putting Fleet back on OH and just leave it at that. But I do understand that it's your addon, and that you can do whatever to it. However, Orbiter is NOT the same without it.

Kyle



Post Edited ( 04-07-12 00:25 )


Offline jgrillo2002

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Reply #23 - 18 April 2012, 21:38:45
Quote
David413 wrote:
Quote
jgrillo2002 wrote:
I seriously think the shuttle fleet should be put back on, because I just lost it due to system corruption, and I have no way of downloading it, let alone David keeping it for himself


Well Zach, what it the truth here?  Elsewhere you have already offered to provide ALL of my add-ons to someone else, and here you claim you lost the most recent SF release?  Please refrain from any further messages, they seem to contradict themselves.

I think you misunderstood I lost the addon earlier, but I found out that another user has your files and gave them to me. what I dont have is the R2 patch for SF 4.8. Im trying to do this for the sake of other users that praise your addons and this is what I get?



Offline David413

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Reply #24 - 18 April 2012, 22:50:10
Quote
jgrillo2002 wrote:
 Im trying to do this for the sake of other users that praise your addons and this is what I get?


Oh come on Zach, I have copies of every recent post you made at the forum (including the previous "visitor" message to me) which clearly show that you don't have such lofty goals in mind.  You achieved your goal and "trolled" me sufficiently that I have chosen to leave Orbiter.  You win, I give up.  Take your victory and move on...