@Mustard: sound following SRB sep in shuttle fleet

[David413]

Mustard,

I enjoyed reading with great interest your comments regarding my fleet and the silence issue in the French section of
the forum.  I have reconsidered having a scenario selectable option for SSME sound following SRB sep.  You are
basing your opinion on the recollections of one astronaut, I've been basing my opinion on the simulator runs I have
made.  The tie-breaker comes in the form of another astronaut's recollection, that of Mike Mullane.  In his book "Riding
Rockets" on page 166 he describes his experience on his first launch:

"A loud metallic bang shook the cockpit and a flash of fire whipped the windows as the boosters separated
from the ET.  Both SRBs tumbled away to parachute into the ocean.

"The sudden loss of 6 million pounds of thrust accompanied by dead silence caught me by surprise.  Had all three of
the SSMEs also shut down?...There was nothing wrong with the vehicle.  Discovery had put most of the atmosphere
behind her.  There was no air to grip the machine or rattle us with shock waves.  And the SSMEs were as finely tuned
as a Rolex.  They continued to deliver nearly 1.5 million pounds of thrust 100 feet behind our backs without a whisper
of noise or ripple of vibration."

That's exactly what I experienced in the simulator, and as such, that's where the debate ends.  With silence following
SRB sep.

Dave

[Urwumpe]

That's exactly what I experienced in the simulator, and as such, that's where the debate ends.  With silence following
SRB sep.

Thats also fitting to what I heard in the sound recordings of the french astronaut. No change in background noise 6 seconds
before the SRBs kick in, no change after MECO. All you hear is the cabin fans - which are always very loud in a spacecraft.

Everything else would also be quite surprising, as the vibrations of a undamaged SSME are also known...

[sunshine135]

I was just thinking about this very issue as I was flying Columbia tonight. Interestingly enough, I was also thinking there
would be little to no sound in the cabin after SRB separation.

Thanks for the insight David. BTW...I love the shuttle fleet, and I hope to get better at using the OPS displays also.

Cheers,

   

[Profil supprimé]

It's your choice and i accept it with your argument, and if you accept to add an sound option then it's ok for me.

Personally, i think that the astronauts have a silent impression because the difference of noice is very important. It's
like to watch directly the sun and enter in a room just after that, you have the impression that the room is in the black.
In the sound record of Baudry we don't have this effect, and we hear the SSME sound. It's a fact. Perhaps that the
Helmet stop this light sound.
In more i think that the silent is disturbing when we control the shuttle, it's the reason because i thnik that it can be
good to have a light bass sound, to keep the impression.

Nevertheless it's your choice, you have good arguments, and if you add a sound option then it's ok for me. I just
exposed my argument to others french members,  it's my right, isn't it ?

Keep your good work please

[Urwumpe]

Mustard a écrit:
In the sound record of Baudry we don't have this effect, and we hear the SSME sound. It's a fact. Perhaps that the
Helmet stop this light sound.

You don't hear the SSMEs, but actually the cabin fans, which ensure air circulation (especially in microgravity, where
convection is no longer working)). If you listen to the recordings, you will find out that the noise level of the cabin does
not change at SSME ignition (which is 6 seconds before the SRBs make noise) and  does also stay constant at MECO.

[Profil supprimé]

I've listened the record after ascension and you're right Urwumpe. the sound is always here. So it's probably the air
circulation system.
Nevertheless a sound option stay a good idea because it's distrubing when you control the shuttle.

[Urwumpe]

Its also disturbing when you get your car back from the mechanics, and notice that you need to turn of radio to hear the
engine while traveling at constant 50 km/h.

For the shuttle, as long as you hear nothing, everything is good. When you hear a siren or worse, some loud bangs, you should
be worried.

[Profil supprimé]

Yes but in the real flight of shuttle, or with your car you have the centrifuge (G) facteur for indicator. In Orbiter we
don't have this. No sound, no G factor. It's disturbing.

[Urwumpe]

Right, but for accurate G-forces, you would need to fly with the shuttle. Also, I would say, that even an astronaut would
have problems noticing the difference between 2 and 3 engines running after SRB separation only by the G-force.

Orbiter is only a simulation which is always limited compared to the reality in one or more aspects. Even if you have 800W
subwoofers, you won't feel the SSMEs.

[David413]

Mustard wrote:
It's your choice and i accept it with your argument, and if you accept to add an sound option then it's ok for me.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I'm not going to be adding a sound option.  Your original argument for
sound was that the silence was unrealistic.  That isn't the case, it is realistic, as you have now agreed.  If I
understand you correctly now, you are asking me to make it unrealistic and still add sound.  I'm going with your
original argument to be as realistic as possible.  Therefore, no sound option.

Dave

[Profil supprimé]

Sound option is just a request because NO sound is disturbing, because with this simulator Orbiter on PC we don't feel the acceleration (G)  and vibration effects. In the reality, the astronauts have this effect and it's a good natural sensor-indicator. So this (light sound) option is a solution to remplace or counterbalance it.  The default effects in your addon must be realistic, it's normal but i think that it's not necessary for the options. But if you don't want include it then it's your choice.

Nevertheless if you want absolutly to be very realistic, then i suggest that you can change also the smoke and
exhauts of SSME and the orientation of exhausts, the EVA hatch (astronauts don't go out by the docking port), add
the orange tiles during reentry like DGIV or CTV, add astronauts in cockpit, shake the cockpit during ascension, add
lights in the bay, add Max-Q cone during ascension, add smokes on the top of tank before launch, etc
Also, few things in Orbiter are not realistic, nevertheless it's a great simulator, but sometimes it's good to have options (realistics or not) to adapt it for a best gameplay and Martin knows that.


Shuttle fleet is your addon, you do what you want. I just suggested an idea, thus you accept or refuse, you do like
you want.



Message modifié ( 02-12-2007 21:13 )

[C3PO]

You can turn up the volume of cabin fans in the OrbiterSound config. Or make a new sound file.

Are there any high fidelity sound recordings from inside the shuttle during launch? Headset microphones are designed
to dampen ambient sound, and often they have auto-gain so the sound level varies all the time.

[Profil supprimé]

Just for our plaisure, an original film, with assembly the audio sound of the astronaut Baudry (in the sup deck of STS51G) and videos from STS117-118. Comment in french
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq2NldslnFQ



Message modifié ( 02-12-2007 21:31 )

[ar81]

Everything tells me that we need to invent Orbinaut chairs with force feedback...  
That would be cool!!

I came to think that a built-in camera effect could compensate the lack of force feedback.
When you brake your head goes forward, when you accelerate it goes backward.
Also camera effects for bumpy reentry could be cool.
Not sure if it could solve the problem.

On a side note...
I also came to think about the possibility of adding a transparent reentry mesh, so you can see the orange glow
when inside the cockpit.
Could it be possible?

[Michael J.]

ar81 wrote:
Everything tells me that we need to invent Orbinaut chairs with force feedback...  
That would be cool!!

A few years ago one of the flights (according to a Shuttle Press Kit I can't find
right now) had a DTO for measuring middeck vibrations at launch.  I seem to
remember they had a 3-axis accelerometer attached to a seat back to collect
the data.  I figured I'd wait a few months after the mission then try to get my
hands on the data set for exactly what you suggest.

Time passed and I forgot about the project, then heard recently that the
KSC Space Center now has a "ride" with lots of shake and rattle.
(http://www.kennedyspacecenter.com/visitKSC/attractions/SLEpage/)

I wonder if that data was used for the ride?

Mike

P.S. - Didn't mean to hijack this thread, but figured David pretty much settled
the issue with his first post.

[Urwumpe]

In "Middeck Interface Definition Document (NSTS-21000-IDD-MDK, REV B)", on page 4-16 (or 65 in pdf) is a table of the
acoustic environment of the shuttle during lift-off and glide. The peak noise in the mid deck at lift-off is 109 dB@65 Hz.