[preview video] Your Journey start from home

[Urwumpe]

Dan: How difficult would it be to define a road mesh of predefined waypoints in a configuration file? With the car just
collecting its trajectory data based on these waypoints when it starts moving or fails to travel the planned route?

[DanSteph]

Urwumpe a écrit:
Dan: How difficult would it be to define a road mesh of predefined waypoints in a configuration file? With the car just
collecting its trajectory data based on these waypoints when it starts moving or fails to travel the planned route?

The fact is that one can't populate a town with cars we plan a max of 5-7 cars
per "town" or "base" with seven places populated in world and a max of 20-35 cars.

This lead for and overall of 400'000 poly and about 200 textures (not all loaded
in same time of course and including cars) For one place this will do about
40'000-60'000 poly and 50 textures. (some place will be less detailed
with less textures)

I think we can't do more unless we head to an addon that will run only on high
end computer.

With IA cars following road on their own you'll probably miss them while doing
recorded path you can place them on exact places/track wich will really matter.

So a "road waypoint" would be nice in case you can really populate a town
with hundred cars not when you have only a few.

In any way even installed in "low" version this will be a great improvment
over "empty world" or "white cube" base of Orbiter. Even a few cars can give
a great feeling of "living place" if placed with great car.

Dan

[picto]

In the same idea than Urwumpe.
If we have only five or six IA Cars, is it possible to imagine that they adapt their "course"
to be closer to the current manned controled vehicle. Like ghosts in PacMan
Just to give the feeling to the user that the place is more inhabited.



Message modifié ( 30-11-2007 13:31 )

[DanSteph]

This will only give you the feeling that... everyone follow you
with possible funny side effects

We might do that for our next addon: "ww2 combat in orbiter sky" (joking of course)

Dan



Message modifié ( 30-11-2007 13:34 )

[picto]

It is not because I am paranoiac that everyone is NOT following me !



Message modifié ( 30-11-2007 13:36 )

[Urwumpe]

Well, maybe in a later version.

Something like SimCopters city rendering would be cool, but I think, it only worked because the cars had less polys as one
hover nozzle of the DG.

But the main reason for such waypoint networks would be (for me), it would be possible to generate cars on demand, without
letting them run fixed tracks. Could create more differences, without repetition. Even if you only allow 10 AI cars in the
simulation - if these 10 cars are different cars running different routes, this can look over some time like you have many
more cars.

Or these cars react on the player: Lets say, you crash your DG near the town, and triggered by that event, fire department
trucks and ambulance cars get created and run towards the crash site. Or you call a fuel truck.

Well, maybe later.

(EDIT)BTW: Would it be hard to use multiple meshes of different level of detail for the car, switching them depending on camera distance or "speed blur"? I mean, from 3000m altitude, 2 triangles in the color of the car would already be enough to represent a car.



Message modifié ( 30-11-2007 14:38 )

[picto]

We should build a club Urwumpe.

I've been asking many questions like this to Dan.
Firemen,  ambulance, fuel trucks, cranes, tarmac engines and so on.
With automatical deployement when a ship is on arrival or crashes of course

But the only answers are :"No, May be, Fous moi la paix avec tes demandes, for the V 33.45 "


But it is not simple, and I can understand those answers.
What happen if you crashes in water for example ?
And many other problems like this one.

[sunshine135]

But it is not simple, and I can understand those answers.
What happen if you crashes in water for example ?
And many other problems like this one.

Actually, since Orbiter's surfaces make no distinction between land and sea, it would make it impossible to trigger an
accident without a "vehicle" responding (i.e. your rescue vehicle driving in the Ocean), but, on the bright side, you could
have boat meshes also. You could program them to run their little pattern, or set them in a static manner out in the ocean
watching liftoff.

You could also program a "life raft" mesh, or maybe place a "button" on DGIV's panel to prepare DGIV for a land or water
based rescue. That could give the desired result for rescue vehicles.

[Urwumpe]

Well, I think there is only one answer. Somebody should do it experimentally. If it works, it works.


Eg, the question if some place is water is simple to solve - describe earth as mesh of triangles... and for each triangle
have the variable "Is it water".  Could be done in a Orbiter plugin...  entering the data would be the most painful part.

[picto]

entering the data would be the most painful part.

Should it be possible to test the alpha of the earth tex tile
masks for specularity to afford this problem ?

A boat is planned, but only to make rounds in water using waypoints



Message modifié ( 30-11-2007 15:21 )

[Urwumpe]

I also plan to do a boat in the nearer future, but i am currently more interested in the "hotware" part of it.

The texture file could be used as basis for the data, but as we are actually only interested in the corners of the oceans
(the coast line), it's a bit overkill to use a large compressed texture as data basis.

[DanSteph]

Many experimental and advanced stuff are possible but not suitable for a "public addon"
For me an addon should work for the great majority and not only on high end computer.

It should also remain straight and simple because no one read docs
When you crash the game is over the "rescue team" would be a lot of work
for only 2mn of "joy" at crash wich will be boring after the 2rd 3rd time.
About realism rescue things that come from nower would not add much
than te simple siren sound, after all game is over.

I would find really more intteresting refuel and maintenance truck that come after
landing on a pad and that really refuel you with interactive stuff. A call on radio
for example.

Anyway UCO & ABFO are not specially dedicated to one addon, this limit the
interaction possible beetween the "main" ship and U&A.

At very last if we do very advanced stuff maybe we should spend the dev time
to recreate a new game where we would be more free to do what we want

Dan

[Urwumpe]

LOL, making the code for a new game is easy. Making the graphics and other artistic stuff for games is hard. And thats not
easier in Orbiter.

And what is really annoying: Have the right idea for a original creative game.

[DanSteph]

Based on my experience a new game engine is not *that* easy,
but still in my plan, I don't lack idea yet I lake time (and time is... ? )

That was one of my dozen game project, 2001


That was another 1997




Dan



Message modifié ( 30-11-2007 16:23 )

[Urwumpe]

DanSteph a écrit:
That was one of my dozen game project, 2001

Damn, thats almost the same idea I had last year... But I changed the concept of the game from age of sail to World War I
after the first sketches, because the period became more fascinating (Especially the battle of Jutland).

Well, I currently make modules for a simple SAM site in Orbiter, which can be sort of a game inside a game. Small Orbiter
modules is all i can currently really do with my free time.

[sunshine135]

DanSteph wrote:
Many experimental and advanced stuff are possible but not suitable for a "public addon"
For me an addon should work for the great majority and not only on high end computer.

Dan

You're my hero Dan. Many programmers don't care about the guy who doesn't have the latest computer specs. That make is tough
for those of us whose main objective may be a PC or Laptop that was purchased more for office functionality rather than gaming.

I think that just creating functional towns/ spaceports/ vehicles will go a long way in improving the fun of Orbiter. I
recall that when I added FSTraffic to FS2000 it added to the depth of the simulation. This would be so, even if the objects
were not programmable/ static.  

You and Pic will bring much satisfaction to the game.

[ar81]

Caring about those who do not have the latest specs means you have a wider market filled with customers.

"Many programmers don't care about the guy who doesn't have the latest computer specs" means that such a
programmer would not be selling as many copies as he could sell otherwise.

[DanSteph]

ar81 a écrit:
Caring about those who do not have the latest specs means you have a wider market filled with customers.

For me it's mainly a question of respect for users and respect for my work,
I want that it run fine and for as much users as possible.

Dan



Message modifié ( 30-11-2007 18:59 )

[Urwumpe]

You have to find a balance between computing power and effects - with some experimental research, you can sometimes find more
advanced algorithms, which can create great effects with only minimal computing power use. If these effects can also be used
on better machines for even more effect, you have achieved a scalable algorithm. And thats what you need on PCs.

If you would just develop games like "Lunar lander" (Nothing against Lunar Lander, it rocks)

http://www.arcademachine.com/go/java/play/A0120.tam


You would not really attract people. Some show is always needed in times, people get visually pleased all the time.

[ar81]

For me it's mainly a question of respect for users and respect for my work,
I want that it run fine and for as much users as possible.

Indeed I truly believe YOU already have OUR respect... your work is amazing!!  
These words can only make us proud of respecting you.

[DanSteph]

Amazing optimization work by Picto:



Dan

[Urwumpe]

One question to your car add-on: Could you allow attachment points, which can be used for attaching trailers to a truck? And
could you implement an AI driver, which follows another car?

[DanSteph]

Technically yes.

Orbiter Attachment: they cause a lot of problem on ground whit relative ,movment , unusuable, so the goal would be
to make trailers as a child animation for turn... I bet the result will not be famous visualy for a lot of work. Also this
would cause problemes with third party cars (dimension will completely change the animation)

As said I can do much more at home with a fixed computer than what is suitable for release, the goal for a public
addon is to have a "full proof" & rock solid addon.

AI following a car technically possible without too much work, but not very suitable and potential problem that will not
practically make it really usefull. (you brake and it crash into you because its brake are less powerfull for example)

How do you see it practically ? "follow me" for what goal exactly ?

Trailers are intteresting I may take a look but not for version 1.0.

Dan

[Urwumpe]

The "follow me" feature could be used for forming convoys of multiple trucks, with the player just steering or programming
the lead vehicle. The braking distance could be used (just like for real life cars) as input for the safety distance while
following another car.

Instead of trailers, what about allowing simple attachments (without any special physics behind) for transporting containers
or special payload modules (eg, instead of making you program a special crane vehicle, install a crane module on a generic
truck)?

[DanSteph]

Urwumpe a écrit:
Instead of trailers, what about allowing simple attachments (without any special physics behind) for transporting
containers or special payload modules (eg, instead of making you program a special crane vehicle, install a crane
module on a generic truck)?

That is an idea that I have in mind, the goal behind this would be to make a sort of "universal container" that *may*
allow further devellopment as orbiter "elite" (orbinomic?), repairing, transport, payload for ship, refuel for station etc
etc... The difficulty is to make something generic, ie: if I do "truck" looking container how would they fit on different
cars or ship, how to transform them in "DGIV" payload container or other payload. One may use maybe one container
for all for example the DGIV container but this would be limiting.

Another idea would be to not really care about container's mesh... on ground they would look like box, on truck like
truck payload, in dgIV payload as dgIV payload. All would have a standard "ID" container that all ship & cars
recognise.

At last the basic idea is that you would be allowed to transport for example refuel container from Factory on earth to
station in orbit and that would really refuel the station.

If the principe is "simple" the hell is in details. As usuall allowing other people to use it as an "Universal container"
system would be nice (unless I program the whole "orbinomic" world alone including ship, cars, station wich is not my
philosophy usually)

Dan