Windows of Opportunity!?

[DocHoliday]

I understand that the folks who run it have sort of a committee that decides which entries to approve, also.
They must do a pretty decent job because I don't see any "j00 $uX()rZ I /\m 1337!!!111111!!!"

Dictatorial as it seems, unfortunatelly, it's the only way to run this kind of facility in this day and age... I think it's a
bold experiment though. Like the net itself.

[freespace2dotcom]

DocHoliday wrote:
First align your orbital with the moon to skip that part of TransX.

I'm sorry, I don't follow that...

Set your target to Moon.

There's no target button!

Turn on the Maneuver mode.  

sorry... How do you do that?

and the list goes on and on and on. I'm sorry doc, but it's hopeless for me. You said it yourself. "you can practically go
to the moon without an mfd", so why bother using the evil that is transx?

I mean things like TransX are basically IDEAL for lazy people like us. The only unlazyness involved is
understanding how to use them. Tell me how it goes.

Yes, I imagine that's entirely the truth, however. the amount of unlaziness required to learn it is SO great that my
laziness overrides the commands my brain gives to try to learn it. I DID load up orbiter just now in an attempt to try,
but, it did not go well.

Actually I this Venus thing kind of doesn't interest *me* for some reason

WHAT!? it's a twice in a lifetime event! how can you not be interested? well, it doesn't matter. thanks for the pic. I
myself am determined to take at least ONE picture for the scrapbooks. if I can get lucky...

[AphelionHellion]

I'm with Freespace
Thing is, I think TransX could be just about the best MFD going without changing or adding any functional features - it
just needs a totally redesigned interface (and some documentation that has actual practical step-by-step examples of
usage). Telling me that "Shift + N opens the HVEL INC/DEC mode" or that "Shift +J toggles x10 HTO time steps" really
doesn't farking help me at all. We simians need to know not just what button does what but what this stuff means.
It's not just about orbital physics, in fact it has little to do with it, when you think about it. You could be the most
important orbital physicist since Kepler, but you're still not going to be able to make heads or tails of that friggin MFD
without understanding how it's set up.

 In general transX is a great tool - however, it suffers mightily from a problem that afflicts many otherwise
masterfully designed software packages: It was designed to be used by the sort of guy who designed it.
In other words, if you know what everything does and how it works, terse abbreviations and vague procedures are no
impediment at all. If you're a programmer geek and you design your own (insert subject here) software, other
programmer geeks will likely have little trouble figuring out how to use it.
Everyone else, on the other hand...

[DocHoliday]

DocHoliday wrote:
First align your orbital with the moon to skip that part of TransX.

I'm sorry, I don't follow that...

The AlignMFD? ... the target MOON?... the RInc down to zero? that thing.

There's no target button!

Print this document: http://www.orbitermars.co.uk/TransX_desc.PDF

and the list goes on and on and on. I'm sorry doc, but it's hopeless for me. You said it yourself. "you can
practically go to the moon without an mfd", so why bother using the evil that is transx?

I hear ya. BECAUSE, you learn something new by applying it on a subject you know, preferably, one you can figure
out without any tools. Then when you get the same result with the new tool, you move on to something advances,
where your mind and even the current tools don't work. Apply the same steps and you should be set.. that's why

SO! You have a few buttons that you need.
The View (VW) button Used to switch between Setup (for target), Maneuver (for burn details) and Target (the
bullseye aid for maneuver execution - available, when you enter some burn details)
The Variable selection buttons (VAR and -VR) Used to switch variables within a given view
The Variable value adjustment (++ and --) Used to adjust the value of the currently selected variable
The Adjustment precision (ADJ and AJ-) Used to change the precision at which the value is changed

Set your view to Start and select your variable to Target and select the Moon as the target.
I don't have Orbiter at work, besides, I have work to do, so try to follow what I said before using this knowledge.
Use the FWD and BCK buttons to change focus between the stage where you leave Earth and the stage where you
encounter Moon. The FWD button will automatically generate Stage 2 once you select Moon as your target.

Will post more details in the afternoon, if you'll be still interested. I think it is critical for you as an Orbiter user to get
over TransX's complexity. It's not beyond you and it's not evil

Cheers,

[DocHoliday]

In general transX is a great tool - however, it suffers mightily from a problem that afflicts many otherwise
masterfully designed software packages: It was designed to be used by the sort of guy who designed it.
In other words, if you know what everything does and how it works, terse abbreviations and vague procedures are
no
impediment at all. If you're a programmer geek and you design your own (insert subject here) software, other
programmer geeks will likely have little trouble figuring out how to use it.
Everyone else, on the other hand...

I know.. and I agree. The guy who designed it had a certain preknowledge. And I try to respect his work, by learning
to use it anyway. Darn, I might even put together a new tutorial based on the docs that came with TransX if I can get
Freespace to use it. Otherwise I'm no good at it I checked and even Gene didn't come around to making one for
TransX

Cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

What doc says:

The View (VW) button Used to switch between Setup (for target), Maneuver (for burn details) and Target (the
bullseye aid for maneuver execution

What freespace hears:

this goes to this, that, that, and then the next thing. And don't forget that other thing that you don't know.

I really don't want to sound like an @$$. because quite frankly, if I magically knew how to use transx, I'd never leave
it alone, but until the old transfer mfd fails me, or I feel like it (neither of which is likely to happen within a few years,
so prepare yourself. ) I doubt I'll learn transx. there's no motivation for me to when what I have is good enough. I
truely appreciate the efforts you're taking doc, but I'm really bad at this sorta thing. quite frankly. "bullseye aid for
maneuver execution" sounds very scary. Sure, I can tell what it means, but why doesn't he just say "targeting" or
something? putting it like that makes it seem like "immoderate phrasing of voluminous dictions." not to mention I think this happens with a few terms I DON'T understand. which just fubar's me. this happens constantly and it's relentless. I may be hopeless, but it looks like the hopeless are in the majority this time...

Edit: not to mention. all that work you say, just to go to the moon? quite the hassle if you ask me... how much do you have to do with the transfer MFD to get similar results. not  much if I do say so myself.



Post Edited ( 06-08-04 11:20 )

[DanSteph]

freespace2dotcom wrote:
What doc says:

The View (VW) button Used to switch between Setup (for target), Maneuver (for burn details) and Target (the
bullseye aid for maneuver execution

What freespace hears:

this goes to this, that, that, and then the next thing. And don't forget that other thing that you don't know.

LOOOOL

Anyway there is another tool called IMFD perhaps a bit more friendly:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/jarmonik/Orbiter.html there is somes doc and tutorial on the author's page

And there is a load of french doc about it here: http://orbiter.dansteph.com/forum/index.php?topic=28.msg217#msg217
(with litle images for illiterated peoples


Dan



Post Edited ( 06-08-04 11:19 )

[DocHoliday]

this goes to this, that, that, and then the next thing. And don't forget that other thing that you don't know.

And I sound just like the author Aphelion described... :/

Sure, I can tell what it means, but why doesn't he just say "targeting" or
something? putting it like that makes it seem like "immoderate phrasing of voluminous dictions"

Well, hehe, I guess that would be a professional deformation. I translate manuals in my spare time and this sort
of "whatever the hell that meant" is quite appreciated

No problem, I actually appreciate you telling me you will not learn this at the moment in advance BEFORE I would
have wasted the time only to be notified later that it didn't sink in or worse led to believe I did something I did not.
Anyway, if the mood strikes you, let me know. I will leisurely prepare a layman's tutorial anyway

Cheers,

[DocHoliday]

IMFD is nice. And I think it's a lot less technical.

[freespace2dotcom]

Nice? a lot less technical?

I'm there! just give me a half a day to get back from school. plus, it'll be daylight soon here. I gotta prepare my eyes
for intense sunlight. looking straight into a lightbulb should be a warmup. I gotta see venus, and I never got those
protection glasses... it's funny, too. I never could find venus during normal times. not that it should be painfully
obvious, I will see it with my own eyes for the first time, if I'm not blinded first... but then, during sunrise, the sunlight
goes through a lot more atmosphere, so I'm not too worried. so long as I don't stare at it all day. If I can get a pic, I'll
post it.

[AphelionHellion]

Doc: And don't get me wrong, we need our programmer geeks  
I'd much rather be envious of your ability to use TransX than have a DocHoliday here who's as clueless as I am
IMDF eh? I downloaded it but I never got around to trying it. I'm there (tomorrow, anyway)!


Freespace: I do hope you're kidding.  Here, I have a powerful laser pointer, why don't you look at that little
tiny speck of dust on the surface of its lens? *aims it directly into Freespace's eyeball*
Seriously, not only is Venus too tiny to see against the sun without a telescope and/or filter, you'll fry your retinas.
Were you there for the thread on watching the Venus transit or was that a different forum? I also hang out on Fark.
com sometimes...
Anyway, telescopes are great for projection. Last eclipse I used my tiny old handheld scope (without looking through
it, of course) to project a surprisingly huge image of the sun onto the fence behind my house. I'm never going back to
mylar goggles again

[DocHoliday]

Well not too untechnical. Can't really expect me to write something like: "If you wanna get your spaceship thingy
over to the red Mars thingy, you hafta have this stretched orbit right, and TransX here thingy, lets you do just that.
But it's kindaevil and doesn't let you just describe it like that. So you have to set the bitch up. You do that by pressing
the top-left button thingy with the neat VW letters on it. So you can tell it where you wanna go. The red thingy is
called Mars, so you let it have target at that. No, hotshot, not yet, holster that gun. ..."

Right?

About Venus. Low priority for me I guess. And it kills my enthusiasm if everyone wants to see it. Sheep logic doesn't
inspire me Besides, I'm short sighted, so naked eyes probably won't reveal much, shades or not and I don't have a
telescope. That basically puts me in this rationalizing mood

Well, it's your eyes, but might I suggest you at least destroy an old floppy disk, take out the magnetic disk and use it
as a filter. Two or three should do the trick. No UV protection guaranteed, but its a minimum.. Should be soon now.
What's you time? 5?

Cheers,

[AphelionHellion]

*lmao reading the discussion of which MFD buttons do what*
We could probably eliminate about 90% of this sort of confusion by translation.
For instance:
Prograde Vector = direction you're goin'
Hypothetical Transfer Orbit = imaginary path you'd take if you aimed the aforementioned direction and stepped on the
gas
Maneuver execution = doing something
target body = place you want to go
reference body = the thing the target body is orbiting
variable = stuff you can change

etc
Admittedly, what clarity you'd gain in transparency you'd lose in length and convoluted sentences

[freespace2dotcom]

No! I'm serious. I enjoy watching bright things. I even held a staring contest with my lamp just now.

Relax, I'm not about to fry what's left of my eyes. granted, I have looked straight into the sun more than once in the
past. and it's possible that's why I have less than 20/20 vision.  but no. I'm quite interested alone in the pics over the
net.

Edit: and I just looked outside. Even if I was temped to, and I sorta was for the curiousity. It's hopeless, because the sky is pure grey from rainclouds. leave it up to me to not watch the news weather forecasts.



Post Edited ( 06-08-04 12:25 )

[AphelionHellion]

Doc: *lmao* "Point the V looking thingy at the other round green thingamabobber and push the big button on the far
right that looks like a little lower case T."
That'd certainly make for entertaining reading if nothing else

Freespace: Heh, sorry - yeah I was 99.9% sure you were kidding, but I think I inherited my mom's "Worry needlessly
about every little thing" gene.

[freespace2dotcom]

AphelionHellion wrote:
Prograde Vector = direction you're goin'
Hypothetical Transfer Orbit = imaginary path you'd take if you aimed the aforementioned direction and stepped on the
gas
Maneuver execution = doing something
target body = place you want to go
reference body = the thing the target body is orbiting
variable = stuff you can change
etc

I really have no problem with any of those terms, HTO is even used in the regular transfer MFD. But maybe it's just
the transX manual that needs that overhaul. far too much to think about right now. dammit you guys, stop posting.
you're distracting me from my far more important homework!



Post Edited ( 06-08-04 12:35 )

[DocHoliday]

arget body = place you want to go
reference body = the thing the target body is orbiting
variable = stuff you can change

Nah, that'd be crazy. A glossary sure, but to replace these phrases with the LONGER versions? No way. People
actually came up with names like prograde to keep it simplified in the first place. There is a minimum of definitions you
need to know and understand if you want to play orbiter after all.

I'd much rather be envious of your ability to use TransX than have a DocHoliday here who's as clueless as I
am IMDF eh? I downloaded it but I never got around to trying it. I'm there (tomorrow, anyway)!

Well, thanks, but compared to some other people on this forum I AM quite clueless I just like to tinker with this sort
of problems, even though I'm not properly equipped to start with. You learn a lot as you go. You think I would be able
to come up with any kind of logic behind that Ascent Scenario unless I spent a godzillion hours flying orbiter and
studying other people's work on the subject. The sum total being that I can now easily imagine what goes on in
orbital mechanics without actually calculating. I'm still not there, and arguably never will be :/  But at least I can
imagine how to do it, do some tests and then reverse engineer a model and from that a set of formulae, I guess
that's the original scientific method! Anyway, the flight data recorded MFD is QUITE useful if you need to analyze what
was going on during a stage of your flight.

Freespace: Heh, sorry - yeah I was 99.9% sure you were kidding, but I think I inherited my mom's "Worry
needlessly
about every little thing" gene.

Or a younger brother thing. Even though I never had one.

from rainclouds. leave it up to me to not watch the news weather forecasts

Same club. T-shirt when it's raining, raincoat in sun... Never trusted the weathermen If I do, they let me down, if I
don't the weather does.... scwewed either way.

[DocHoliday]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Hands on example, numbers compared to theory....

[freespace2dotcom]

Doc, I said, don't post anymore! oh well.... anyway. I wear a light "wind-breaker" coat. pretty much all year round
now. it doesn't protect against real cold, but I don't mind. and if it get's really hot, then I take it off and tie the sleeves around my waist and I'm all right. I'm immune to mere rain with that coat. plus, it hides the fact that I wear the same shirt for more than 3 days in a row. total plus!



Post Edited ( 06-08-04 12:49 )

[DocHoliday]

My boss has a day off, so shoot me

Okay, then don't go to Dan's Addons Forum..

Dough!!!

Hey come back!!



Post Edited ( 06-08-04 12:57 )

[freespace2dotcom]

Ok........

anyway. It turns out that I am blind, because there wasn't a cloud in the sky at all today. I must have guessed that
the sun was fully out when it wasn't... it's funny though. the sun seems to beckon me to look at it, because it's
reflection seems to be everywhere today.. or at least it was as I was walking to the bus stop, and sorta peeking at it
in the corner of my eye.. then I broke down and looked at the sun for a few seconds and gave up cuz I couldn't find
venus and didn't want to risk more permanent damage..... oh well.. I'm sure it was probably over anyway...

[DocHoliday]

There is a thread on the main forum. Jel already posted photos of what it looked like in Denmark. Presumably more
people will add photos.

[freespace2dotcom]

But am I the center of attention there? I don't think so. actually, I'm shy around bigger forums. there's that chance
that I might bump into some jerk like me and all hell will break loose. Oh, sure, there's that chance here too, but it's
so much smaller that I'm willing to risk the stability of dan's forum on it. aren't I nice?

[DocHoliday]

khehe.. a real nice guy

[reekchaa]

Grroooovy, babay.  Back to the Main Forum.  Maybe I can piss off Mr.Batman again  

========================================
Creator of: "If it's Not Fun, Don't Do IT !"
Loses Brain Energy with Ramen & Soda
Creator of several ruptured lumbar discs
========================================
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