The truth is in here...not out there

[glObalist]

DanSteph wrote:

> And I don't take in account the ridiculous things that after a
> so big travel
> they would have only contacted our dumb governement and
> accepted to
> remain hidden. (and any other story I have read about them that
> share the same
> major characteristic: they seem all ridiculous and totally
> "humanocentrist" )



Exactly. This is actually THE thing that so pisses me off about these people who claim they know of (or believe in) a
government/UFO conspiracy or similar theories. They act as if doing me a favor by opening new horizons for me, while
in my eyes they remain on this "humanocentric" level, which is just not enough for me. I have studied philosophy,
read a thing or two about cosmology and astronomy (Carl Sagan's Cosmos being my personal "Bible"), and let me tell
ya, the universe is an ugly inhuman bitch in a way.


On the other hand, I gotta say this:  Just as well as I believe that no aliens ever contacted the homo sapiens, I also
believe that there is plenty of inteligent life in the universe. The only problem is that we (or they) yet have to make a
contact. Which, run through the mill of the relativity, statistics, or probability theories, is not likely to happen.

BTW, I remember reading somewhere a nice quote by one of the Apollo astronauts. Orbiting alone in the CSM on the
dark side of the Moon, waiting for his colleagues to come back and beholding the perfectly visible field of millions of
stars, he said to himself something like this:

"As I can see it NOW, there are only two choices really: It's either all dead out there, and all this time we've been
here all alone, or the universe is just teeming with all sorts of life forms, out of which our race is only a grain in the
sand."

[DanSteph]

First of all don't worry some of my good friend are at the opposite
politics side from me and they are still friend it's just that we don't
speak politic

chris wrote:
> Once more, let me ask you, why would people like this lie ?
> Why do we systematically deny facts

Some of them aren't lying (some are for multiple reason),
I have made many experience in my life  and I came to one conclusion:
the human mind is really powerful and is made to make conclusion
with a few proof or even no proof at all.

In the world some believe that the trepanation is a way of healing anything
(and reveal the third eyes bla bla bla bla) here : http://www.trepan.com/
some believe in one or another god, some in guru , some believe that child come when
woman kiss some tree or that they can make rain fall while singing.
Some believe that eating tiger meat or elephant 's ivory would give them the animals power.
Most woman I know believe in astrology, or ghost or live after the death or
moving object with mind, or start to touch wood to give us luck, ot trow salt
behind our shoulder  or or or or...... the list is endless

Thinking about it I can hardly find people that doesn't believe to one thing or another
and ALL of them are firmly convinced and can produce many witness and many proof.

Thinking more about it I think that people like me that doesn't believe to any of those
things are the real alien around here.

I need real science proof and more , really more something that is LOGIC
and not humanocentrist.

None of those things nor alien visiting our governement are logic or have sufficient logic proof
that I can't explain in other way.

Why would they visit us in so many dumb contact ? why would they visit only our governement ?
why any "governement" would have any importance for them ?  because we think that governement
is important ? THAT'S humanocentrist.... WE think like this so THEY must think like us.

Why are they so powerful to travel light years and so dumb to not successfully hide themself to anyone ?
if they don't want to hide why don't they go over new york or paris or any town claiming
"hey people look we are green and we are here" or just hacking our entire network passing a message ?
Bypassing the light speed limit isn't a joke, it's the full control over the matter, so they can hide
or do whatewer they want, but please don't tell me that they have made a mistake
while passing in front of a plane because blOuglOu-the-green  just forgeted to push
the invisibility button in their vessel. (blOuglOu-the-green is really dumb to forget that so many time)

Where is the logic here ? ther is none because as many things like astrology or even god (sorry
to our strong believer) it's only in our mind because we need a god , we need to believe to something
that is over us, more powerful and guide our life.

Why ?

because the life himself is really distressing, we are here , we think , we don't know why we are here,
our brain have fear of what he don't know. Humain brain litterraly hate unknow and the brain is marvelous
because as soon as something unknow come it start to fill the emptyness with anything he can find...

Look at religion and history of religion, for example the big turtle that is supporting a flat world ,
that is our brain , it's wonderful, he made us the 1st power of world , but he is NOT
made for LOGIC and unanswered question.

That's my believe, and it's marvelous, science give already billion answer to
our history from the first point of energy to us, and for me nothing that we *invented*
as an answer can't even beat the first science explainaition.

Knowing and being convinced of all, that the most logic explaination of alien for me is:
"Hey, another things humain brain invented...." and there is perhaps less witness of UFO
than people that can ASSURE you that touching wood work and give you luck.

Anyway I'm 40 soon not 17 so I know now that people have their hown belief
and that they wont change for all the gold in the world, included me of course....

I'm humain after all   (pardon me science sometime I had touched wood

Dan



Post Edited (04-09-04 02:52)

[chris]

Hey Dan ,still up ?

Thanks for responding, as I said download the C.O.M.E.T.A report and
you will have all the logical and physical evidence you need to take this matter
seriously.

You know, I am pretty similar to you, in  fact that I'd rather relly on physical evidence than
phylosophical interpretations.

I am about to become a student pilot as well in Mandelieu Airport (Cannes) and I am also involved
in  a "Deep Space Photography Program" as an "amateur" for a local Astronomy club.

We, Air&Space-Simfans need to take this subject in perspective and I would add that it has it's place
in the Space Exploration.

Everyone is free to have it's opinion and that's the only way it should be, but  since I know
you guys share the same interest and curiosity towards life than me and taking into account that the
average "bozzo" doesn't hang out in this forum. I had to talk about it with you.

I gave you guys the info to check, now your free to see by yourself.
Doesn't matter for me if you guys agree or not but at least you saw the material.
And by the way I am not the "Big Conspiracy Guy" you guys think I am, I leave this to other people.

I am just a human being with his faults.
Peace to all...

Chris "frenchie"

[DanSteph]

chris wrote:
> Hey Dan ,still up ?

Yes you wont believe why.....

I bought two rabbit for my wife's birthday 15 days ago and during
the evening I opened their cage so they can run a bit in the house....

And those stupid animal that don't understand nothing to science and
only believe in their god "carrot" now don't want to re-enter in their cage....
(they even dont TOUCH the wood as any of us, they EAT it... stupid animals

(at least one of them is inside now but I closed the cage)

EDIT: the second was famous.. burp.. sorry.

Dan



Post Edited (04-09-04 04:29)

[DanSteph]

I've looked to the cometa report (one cannot say I don't WANT to see evidence)
and I wrote a long post here saying my conclusion...
unfortunately the post crashed and I lost my message....

in brief:

strange things the author of the two edition of this report (COMETA wich is an association not an official things)
(1999 and 2003 edition with nothing news in this last one)
sue everyone that put the report online.
You get a mail in the 2-3 days saying that they will send the laywer against you.
The two edition are available in book that are sold in the commerce.
For people that are so concerned by the $ truth $ that the governement
want to hide to us it seem a bit strange.

COMETA is run by high ranked retired military , I smell some strange smelling
of many things here BUT litle green men.

Appart that the report state the same things I have read 20 years ago
nothing new. (ha ha the episod where an UFO stop on top of a minuteman missle
than a strange ray come from it and the missle was out of order seem
to come from a Z serie film from the 70 era during the cold war)

Permit that I put it in my desk under the "astrology truth" but on top
of the "trepanation truth" report. (it's more fun to read)

Notice that some of the worse critic against this report and the UFO phenomena
come from former strong believer of UFO that know the backdraw of this things:
Claude Maugé, Jacques Scornaux, Erick Maillot,  Dominique
Caudron (who wrote a book in FAVOR of the UFO some years ago
and who is really documented continuing to search truth about that)

Search about "cometa oncle dom" (Dominique Caudron)
in the google group.

In fact nobody know the real intterest that have cometa to write this report
(what is behind) but one things is sure, there is nothing that come further
than earth here.

In conclusion:
In one way I'm deceived that the green didn't visited us but in another
way I'm happy because I would shoot at any extra terrestrial that
do such dumb things as in the cometa report, I don't need them at all
if this manner.

Alien GO home


Dan

[DanSteph]

ha ha there is fun things in the ufo world:

LOOK at this banner, they fear nothing:


here: http://www.ufoevidence.org/

LOL LOL LOL those photos next the "scientific" text  

Dan



Post Edited (04-09-04 06:36)

[DocHoliday]

this debate is getting really interesting. So I'm going to put a little oil to the fire. Am curious about it anyways:

What do you guys think about this. I had this discussion the other day with a friend who is a combination of
conspirationist, personal prophet, chosen one and alien all in one person He thinks that ISS is a planned to be a
sort of an embassy for aliens and humans, because it is big enough to accomodate both astronauts and "visitors".
And it IS being built by many nations, which means it can be an "Earth embassy" if necessary.

Opinion?

For the record, I think it is ridiculous, but then again, I'm not in the loop

[chris]

Hi Dan and everyone.

I am so stoked that you guys responded so well.
As a matter of fact, I didn't expect to see as much enthusiasm, wether you agree or not wich
is sacred for me,  since it is your own sincere opinion.

I could have talked about it on the French forum but I wanted to use my English to
bring it to the International forum.

Dan, I have to agree with you, this kind of website that you showed us earlier is the kind of
crap that totally destroy the seriousness of the matter.
I would say that 98 % of the so'called Ufologist are just in here to make money before they even
think about the consequences when they release false or corrupted information.

I haven't read the entire COMETA report but it's just one document out of dozens that were sent
to numerous Governmental Agencies Worldwide.
It is interesting for me as an observer and an outsider to see that Muslim countries like Turkey are
pretty open to the subject and have officially released data and their concerns about "Near Air Miss-Collisions"
and about the violiations of their Air Space.

Since you are a pilot and I am sure some of the orbinauts in here are too, I would recommend you guys
to go check : www.narcap.prg (National Aviation Reporting Center on Anomalous Phenomenas)

That's it for now, o by the way Dan or anyone, how do you guys manage to spend hours on
the computer without getting your wife (girlfriend) mad ?
Please, I need an answer, 'cause all my girflriends (only have One now) seem to give me **** as soon as
I fly a plane or a spaceship. Bummer..........

Thanks for now and Peace.

Chris "Frenchie"

[chris]

Hi DocHoliday,

I've read your question about the ISS and all I could tell you right now
from my personnal knowledge is that the ISS is compromised for now as well as Hubble
because of the crash of the shuttle during reentry (RIP- We love you guys)

All STS missions will be rescheduled by NASA and we do not know yet
when the next launch is gonna take place. (tell me if I am wrong)

The ISS might be a waste of money for all the countries involved and one have to keep in mind
that Nasa was the big promoter of the ISS Project.

Regarding the fact  that some people think that the ISS would welcome Aliens that's another
question and I cannot share my point of view with this one due to a lack of informations.

But if you ask me, it's just one story that was made up by some illuminated individual trying
to get publicity or something else.

Even if this was true, Government have prooved us in the past that they know how to keep a secret and I could
assure you that they wouldn't tell us if this was the case.

Hope I answered your question.

Take care. Peace.

Chris "Frenchie"

[chris]

Sorry the link is : www.narcap.org

Peace.

Chris "frenchie"

[DanSteph]

DocHoliday wrote:
> this debate is getting really interesting. So I'm going to
> put a little oil to the fire. Am curious about it anyways:
>
> What do you guys think about this. I had this discussion the
> other day with a friend who is a combination of
> conspirationist, personal prophet, chosen one and alien all in
> one person
> Opinion?

Bah, I don't know if it's me but I meet more people like him than die hard
science fan.

For example my pilot instructor was a really good guy that seemed to have
a solid common senses and a real careness about security.... One time once
on ground we talked about various things when he suddenly seem to brake
a fuse in the brain when we talked about fasten the belt in cars....

For him it's an absolute no no , the belt his here to kill us bla bla bla....
(and, don't laugh: "the governement know that it kill people but it's a conspiracy..."

Chris wrote:

Since you are a pilot and I am sure some of the orbinauts in here are too, I would recommend you guys
to go check : www.narcap.prg (National Aviation Reporting Center on Anomalous Phenomenas)

Oh for  the record I'm still STUDENT pilot I have only 20 hours and 6 hours solo
and I'm affraid I will stay like that for a $ long time $

Bah, sorry but it's a loss of time, 100'000 people on earth see each day strange things
I will not review all the case to see if perhaps there is a real encounter into them.

And as I said seeing the billion stars , the time/space distance I cannot believe
that someone is visiting us.

After all it's only a question of point of view: last day my wife started a sentence
and before she even finished it I was mentally saying the end in my mind... it was:

wife:  "oh do you know that the father of our neigborough....." <- pause to take oxygen
me in my mind : "will do a colloscopy..."

And it was exact and I assure to you that nobody spoke to me about the father.

Can you tell me how I managed to complete this sentence with such a strange word at the end ?
I can find 1000 guy who will assure that it's marvellous, I'm able to read in mind bla bla bla.....

Coincidence, that's all.

Dan

[chris]

Dear Dan

Do you get any pleasure from denying evidences. lol.
Because all I am talking about is physical evidence and not some interpretations of my own.
Despite the fact that just like you, I am an average civilian, my brain tells me NOT to come to any conclusions.

Why ? Just because my IGNORANCE toward the subject is so big, even so, I've been involved in private researchs for
the last 5 years.

I CANNOT still come to conclusions, this wouldn't be honest from my part.
You might ask yourself what pushed me to study this matter.

I didn't want to talk about it because I was afraid to be discredited in this forum and I do mind about your opinion.
Dan you have to remember that for me someone like you is a blessing to our society, because of the fact that
you share your work and your talent with others. I'm looking up to you bro'.

The thing is that I was lucky enough to witness with some other friends 3 UFOS flying silently over South Beach MIAMI
for 20 minutes, during a clear mornig in July 1999.
As I watched these grey balls performing maneuvers for everyone to see them. I DID NOT think that these
objects were trying to remain hidden but it would be more the other way around, I do think that they are
showing themselves (see Mexico City Full Eclipse sightings) and that they might want to introduce themselves
progressively. Anyway this is just an interpretation, NOT a conclusion and isn't it logical due to our retarded way of
thinking ?

What's even more interesting is that I found a picture taken from the ground of these grey balls
and they have the same "brown stick" on top of them.
I took me nearly 5 years to find this picture and believe me it just looks like what we've seen.

So, to come to a conclusion sort off, my only recommendation to newcomers and oldtimers would be NOT TO come to
conclusions of their own , since our ignorance is so BIG.
And no matter what people think, we need facts to move on, not deductions.
Staying humble and recognizing our lack of knowledge seems to be the WISER  equation.

Once again, peace to all of you and thanks for sharing your points of views.

Chris "Frenchie"

[DanSteph]

Oh well, I believe in UFO, they are "Unidentified flying Object"
as the name tell : "they are unidentified"

Most of them are fake, atmospheric effect, plane, mind effect, ballon or natural effect.

Some else remain what they are "unidentified" (0.1%?) as are many things
that the science cannot explain right now. they could be also natural effect that we aren't able
to explain or dozen others things instead of green men coming from another planet ?

Anyway as you see in my many posts about the subject, I'm intterested about it.
(but as you see , I will not change my opinion about them anytime soon
so I think the discussion is starting to loop)

Cheers,

Dan

[Krytom]

I believe in an infinitely big universe, thus I am convinced that there is life out there.
But what I find strange is that many people think aliens to be more advanced than us. They are more likely to be
bacteria or plants. They will all also be carbon based and have four base pairs in their DNA like all life on earth,
because I think that's the only possible way for life to exist.
Anyway, if there are other aliens in this galaxy, we're more likely to find them before they find us.

[Neal]

Dan, I love ya'and respect ya', man. And I know most of us on both sides aren't going to change our entrenched opinions.
(Pity, how we are in that respect, don't you think?) Anyway, I just have to add one thought to this discussion: Since
unidentified phenomena (call them UFOs, if you want) have been reported for centuries world-wide, by now there must be
millions, if not hundreds of millions of reported sightings. All it takes is one -- just one -- out of all those millions to
be able to say that there's indeed something to it. Fakes, atmospheric effects, planes, etc. can certainly account for many.
I think we all agree on that. But ALL of them? Hmmmm. What are the odds of that? I better stop now. I promised myself I
wouldn't get in on this discussion. (Well, unless you stir me up again.  :-)  ) Bye, guy.

Neal

ps: Keep an open mind, will ya? It's how we discover things. :-)

[freespace2dotcom]

Well, you know, when it really comes down to it.. everybody.. does it really *matter* to us if any form of life truely
exists outside of this planet?  Not really.. I'm not a pessimist, I believe it is possible, but then, ANYTHING is statistically
possible. Don't let this nasty sarcastic message fool you. I have a copy of seti@home on my computer, just as I'm
sure at least a few of you guys (and gals) do.

http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/    *wink* *wink*

now frankly, unless some flying saucer or something comes and lands smack dab in the middle of a major city and  an
alien says "take me to your leader" nothing will change. People will go about their lives just as they always have.
even if it is confirmed that life, or even intelligent life exists, say, 450 light years away, people might get excited about
it for a year or two, but even so, it will most likely be the same excitement that was seen when we first when to the
moon, and will die off eventually, it's not like we'd be able to communicate with them, so if you ever asked a
person "hey, is there really life on another planet?" they person'd just say yeah and walk off, just like if you'd ask a
person if we'd ever went to the moon today. In fact the only people who would still be interested in such a thing
would be the equivalent of those who are exited that we're finally be going back to the moon after all these years.


In other words, they'd be the equivilent of us.

Think about that.

[Krytom]

I think the description in 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' is quite good. The description in the book
decribes them as aliens just spooking us for fun. Think about it, if aliens are coming to earth and have been
sighted so many times, how do we know that all of them are for research purposes, they could just be spooking
us for fun.

We would. Wouldn't we? But seriously how do we know that the aliens (if they exist) are that much different from
us?

So many questions.

[DanSteph]

Neal wrote:
>Dan, I love ya'and respect ya', man.

I agree totally for the respect this as nothing to do with our opinions,
Otherwise it would mean nothing to just respect people that always agree with us uh ?

Neal wrote:
have been reported for centuries world-wide, by now there must be
millions, if not hundreds of millions of reported sightings. All it takes is one -- just one -- out of all those millions to
be able to say that there's indeed something to it

"There must be million if not hundreds of millions" isn't a very scientific number, any sources, any proof of
that ?  The UFO *green men* theory reached it's full success during the 70 era, now it's declining.

Anyway million people on earth believe to one think or another so I must count them and start to believe
to the think that have the most believer ? sorry this is not an argument for me.
I believe in the good nature of humain mind and several others quality but I do not believe that
most people are logical, practicall and have a scientist behaviour.

Anyway as stated freedotcom ***even*** if they visit us but remain hidden
that doesn't make a big difference uh ?
After all we already all agree that life statistically must exist on others planets and that possibly
intteligent life is/was/will exist. So it would not be a big news, just a confirmation.

Anyway this thread is a real success

Dan



Post Edited (04-10-04 14:04)

[chris]

What up Neal ?

Thanks for reminding us that statistics work for us. Thank Math...
Let me just remind you real quick that an average of 90 % of people DO NOT report these sightings.
This statistc was made in Occidental countries, not talking about 3rd world countries.

In other words even if 0.1 % of these sightings are real extraterrestrial objects, then more scientists should get
involved and they should overcome the "ridicule barrier" surrounding the subject.

Denying, ridiculing, minimizing, discrediting this matter is "the way to go" for most of us.
Why ? Maybe because the human kind is too proud and selfish to consider itself on a lower level in the
huge life chain.

Recognizing our stupidity and our lack of knowledge is certainly a smarter and less "Humanocentrist"
position to hold.

Ignorance is a blessing as long as long as it motivates us to learn more.

Peace to all of you guys.
Chris "frenchie"

[chris]

Hi everyone again.

I am gonna play a little game. Let's pretend I am on the other side...

-All ufo sightings are misinterpretations of konwn or unknown phenomenas.
-Government are saying the truth, as always.
-Do NOT take into account testimonies coming from high credibility individuals, like ATC's, fighter pilots, Cosmaunauts,
Scientists and so on,  because they all lie and I know it.
- Governments are not spending money into this kind of research, it is a big cover up to finance other projects.
- We will find them before they do because we are so advanced.
- Universe is too big for them to find us because we say so.
- All videos and radar contacts are "noise" on the radar screen.
-Since we are so advanced why wouldn't they land in NYC ?
-debunkers do not exist, they are just CIA people who want to help us see the truth.
-People are so dumm, they would believe anything, I don't so I am smarter.

The list could go on and on.
Now tell me guys who are the "Humanocentrists" ?

This was a fun and an interesting thing to do.
Just to say that coming to conclusions at this point seems very ridiculous and self-orientated.

Peace.  Chris "frenchie"

[DanSteph]

In brief it's exactly that, nice job

Last post for me on that subject.

Dan

[DocHoliday]

Hi all,

Krytom: Although carbon-based life forms seem to be the most likely or even the only possible, I don't agree and so
would Arthur Clarke. He's done a lot of work in this area and came up with various alternative type of creature, which
for all we know, could be out there; the well-talked-about silicate-based "pseudo" robots, and then I remember him
describing some gas creatures that might live in the high layers of Jupter type giants, etc. If the universe IS without
limits, than there must be infinite number of living things and following the same rule, they must either ALL be carbon-
based or of so many variations we can't even theoretically discuss them

Dan: I agree, this kind of topic as I said in my first post, appart from sharing opinions, can't have any real conclusions,
appart from getting our brain into high gear to play with various theories. Any kind of persuasion as to who is right or
wrong is quite useless I think it was Lord Henry in Oscar Wilde's Picture of Dorian Gray who said:"I saw we all be
religious (christian in this case). We have got nothing to lose. If there is no God and Haven and we played by the
rules, we have lost nothing. On the other hand, if it is all true, and we have ignored it all, we will feel rather silly at
the gates of Heaver... or rather Hell will be more likely!". Words to that effect. Same thing with UFOs. The friend I
mentioned before believes he is a sort of a chose one. To most people it might sound ridiculous, but what if someday
a UFO lands and its occupants address him as the ambassador of Earth. Then *I* WOULD feel rather silly, especailly if
I managed to ridicule the "chosen" friend into hating me

Chris: I think Dan said it well enough. For centuries unexplained phenomena were just that. Unexplained. This of
course leaves room for any kind of interpretation. Unethical people will not hesitate to take advantage of it. Ancient
priests were known to abuse solar eclypses to control the masses under the pretext, that the Gods were not
pleased, so they were giving them a warning, etc. Just as statistical analysis almost always has a category
called "other" so do some (flying obviously, but not limted to) phenomena we can't explain fall in the realm of UFOs.
And even though you have bogous radar blips, visual sightings, even mass sightings, that does NOT categorically
prove UFOs as aliens, nor does it discount the possibility that they are all various scientific occurances which we EVEN
TODAY have no theoretical or practical way of explaining. (think parapsychology or acupuncuture or astrology or
whatever) Now, the scientific way of looking at it, or actually common sense, is to continue calling them unexplaned,
until we are ready and able to accuratelly describe them. No reason to label them alien or whatever. We may, but it is
not correct, it is misleading and might even cause additional problems. Sort of similar to how people personify animals
or cars. Give them more emotions and intelligence than is really there. Governments are similar as well. We all think of
them as highly organised, focused, directed, sinister lean-mean-get-the-job-done machines, but in reality it is more
likely governments are just as chaotic as your average company or other organizations with people in it

Last but not least, the word unknown or unexplained appart from being the most accurate also has a positive effect
on people, whereas alien(s) divides them. We all start thinking when confronted with the unexplained, think of it as a
challenge, try to be the 1st to solve it. But with alien we either think:
- "I knew it. I am not the only one who knows the truth" or
- "Oh heck, another one of those freaks"....

Humanity is divided enough to be able to afford another form of division into the believers and the infidels But THAT
is another story....

Cheers, tolerance and sharp brain to all

Janez