solar system blues

[freespace2dotcom]

Hello all! I'm (trying) to build a solar system for orbiter, and I've got this funny idea, but I'm not sure if it'd work, not to
mention that I have no idea how to do such a thing.

I want to have two planets rotating around each other whilst orbiting their star. I know that stars in binary systems
can revolve around each other, so it sounds feasible to me, but I don't know if orbiter could even do that.

If you guys could tell me that it can be done, I'd be grateful, and even more so if you could tell me how.

Thanks

[DocHoliday]

Hi freespace (nice game that by the way)

First you need to decide what are you actually trying to do. The way you put it, I see two options:
1. You have a star in the middle and then two planets at opposite sides revolving around the star and at the same
time around eachother. Imagine (planet1 ------- Sun ------- planet 2)
2. The planets orbit around eachother, while orbiting the star. Kind of like Pluto and Charon. Imagine Sun ------
planet1 -- planet2

I assume, you'd prefer the second option and it seems to me it should be workable in Orbiter, but I have no
experience with solar system building myself. It might be that Orbiter doesn't support this kind of "nested" orbits. I
know it doesn't support binary stars atm. Not sure about planets.

Assuming its possible, there is a lot in the manual, so you should dig into it. The trick is, the two planets must be
comparable in weight, unlike for example Earth and Moon, but more like Earth and Venus. And you should put them
close together. Now as to make the whole setup STABLE.. I don't know.

Will ponder this. Tell me how you progress.

[freespace2dotcom]

I'm not sure what you mean by the first option, but the second sounds like what I'm trying to acomplish. I know that
the chances of orbiter supporting such a freaky orbit scenario are pretty slim. I made a little picture demonstrating the
concept (in paint, I don't have photoshop yet.. ), but I don't know how to post it.. I can email it if you like
(28 or so KB) I'm pretty sure I got the movement right, but it's just an example..  I also knew that they need to have
similar weight, but I'm stuck as to how to make the thing work.  I was also thinking that it might be best to put them
fairly far away from the star, so that it's gravity doesn't "break" the orbits. but then again, that might not matter... I'm
trying to go for a system with pretty views, but it's quite the hassle...



Post Edited (04-05-04 10:27)

[Spacingbluefrog]

Hi,

Look at my addon "Antiope" (both on orbithangar and AVSIM) and you will find a solution.
It's stable, visually right, but flying in such a system may present some big troubles because the transcription of
gravitational forces are not accurate at all.

_____________________________________________________________________
In space, nobody can hear you cry....

[freespace2dotcom]

thanks.. I'll look at it. I'm not too worried about accuracy so much as having the thing work.  When I'm done with
the system and you first look at the moon of the first planet. I know the first words out of everyone's mouths will
be "WTF?!" I won't say anything more though, because I'll probably change a lot before then.

[freespace2dotcom]

Ok, I think I see what you did.. you made an "invisible" planet and made that the center of gravity, allowing those
two to "orbit" each other, although they're actually moons to the invisible mass, correct?

but the invisible gravity would undoubtably make things screwy.. As you said.. It gives me something to look at
nonetheless.. I'll toy around with that..  it's not what I had in mind, but maybe I can tinker something up.

Now for a futile question: is there any sliver of hope that the "real" way of implementing this will be added to orbiter?

I'll be happy even if the answer is "Five years from now"

[DocHoliday]

Hey,

I think the question isn't when, but why. If you can justify such a request well enough, Martin would probably
consider it fairly. Otherwise the time invested into programming this would be wasted. Unless it were a personal
challenge. I know I would think like that. Although in this case, I think Orbiter will evolve to support such options

Out of respect to all developers we (the ignorant) should show proper respect, especially since they are doing it on
their free time, sacrificing other activities, which they might enjoy.

Right, Dan, God Creator of DG3 and OrbiterSound?

[harmsway]

From my own experence in building solar system in Orbiter there is no provision for what you want to do. Maybe you
can come up with an ingenious work around.

For all other aspects of solar system creation you can learn from my tutorials.

http://www.eharm.net/shop/freeware/orbiter/tutorials/solar_system/solar_system.html

Gene

[freespace2dotcom]

I never was good in my english classes, largely because I'm not a natural essay writer.  Because of that fatal flaw,
(and my unbelievable sarcastic nature) Me trying to convince a person of such high prestige to do some menial
thing "just because I want him to" is as likely as me bending a spoon with my mind. Besides...

Respect is one thing I find myself lacking in at almost all times. It's not intentional, it's just the way I'm wired..

However I would like to commend all those who spent (and continue to spend) countless hours doing something SO
intellectual that a geek like me is humbled beyond words.

but ultimately, I'm patient, and it is likely that it will be included *eventually* so I'm content to not make waves and
just wait until it happens.

[freespace2dotcom]

hehehe.. that's the tutorial that inspired me to start the project that I'm asking about right now.. small world, isn't it?


harmsway wrote:

> From my own experence in building solar system in Orbiter there
> is no provision for what you want to do. Maybe you
> can come up with an ingenious work around.
>
> For all other aspects of solar system creation you can learn
> from my tutorials.
>
> http://www.eharm.net/shop/freeware/orbiter/tutorials/solar_system/solar_system.html
>
> Gene

[DocHoliday]

I really admire people with the guts to be sarcastic, even if it harms them. It takes guts to shoot your mouth off. Then
again, you would probably say it takes brains not to

Oh, and there is no such thing as being a natrual essay writer, or not being one. You just weren't properly instructed
to relax and get into the writing mood. I'm pretty sure, you could come up with some nasty essay. It's the teachers
fault for not being able to get passed the sarcasm and see it as an incredible ability to be creative. The best works of
literature came from people who either criticized or questioned the contemporary society and its values

What are you trying to do in your project anyway? Maybe we can help?

Cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

Well, I think I'm creative enough, but the trick is I never was able to follow the rules of professional essay writing.
(down with formality!)

That aside, My real goal with what I'm doing is to learn a little bit about orbiter itself. I think I know enough to finish
it. and in fact, I even tried to emulate that "planets rotating around each other" thing without much of that
annoying "invisible gravity" and succeeded! The only problem is that they spin around each other so fast you'd think it
was under time compression.....

Even so, I think I'll be happy with it if I tinker with it some more. Now if only I had photoshop, then I could make some
decent textures. I think I found some really cool pictures, but they need a lot of editing.. A picture of wrinkled
aluminum foil isn't that attractive by itself, but if you cut and paste it into another picture, it can look like a snow
capped mountain range! Too bad my skills would most likely make it look like a wart or something...

[DocHoliday]

If you ask me formal rules defeat the whole purpose of essays. They should be free form in my view. But back in my
class we had two types. The formal and the creative. Some topics can be made to fit in a formal form well enough,
some just cannot. The creatives ones usually

I have some skill with Photoshop, but none with making textures for planets. How do you go about it exactly?

You actually got them to spin around eachother AND follow the orbital path around the Sun? Gewd! Just put them
at a greater distance then. Personally, I get confused even with the Jovian moons in Orbiter, they orbit too damn fast
to get any proper orbital maneuvers done

Cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

Well, I made an artificial "invisible" planet as the center of gravity, like bluefrog suggested, but I didn't make it very
big OR massive, and as a result, the two rotating planets revolve around it at a rediculous pace. (about 1 revolution
every 3 SECONDS or so. 8o )  the problem isn't in the speed at which they travel past the sun, but the speed that
they move around the "invisible" planet. putting them farther from the sun won't help that unfortunately.. but
anyway, I'm not ready to start on the textures yet, I have no experience with textures myself either, I'm just learning
as I go, but it doen't sound too hard (famous last words) I still have a few more things I want to know, (at least
one thing specifically is what the "habitable" zone is for the star I'm using)

Mass = 2.568714e+30
Size = 11.23e8    

can anyone help me there?

Edit: I fixed a nasty grammar error that could have been misleading..



Post Edited (04-07-04 09:21)

[DocHoliday]

No I meant, put the planets farther appart from eachother (and the invisible central body) or further decrease the
mass of the central invisible body or the planets themselves. How far appart are they now?

Popped your question to Google for ya and here's something that might be what you are looking for:
http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/asp1022/LectureNotes/habitable03.pdf

Cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

Google, of all things.. I should have known...

Well, I really can't decrease the mass of the "invisible" planet any more because it's already practically zero.. I'm
tinkering with the distances between the two planets, but a really nasty problem I have is that if I decrease the mass
of either of the two planets, or bring them farther away, they're not really in each other's sphere of influence, you
know? I'm thinking about making the "invisible" planet a bigger "Visible" one, but for all purposes, I'll just say that it's
been sheperded in place by the gravity of the two "real" planets, or something.. just like saturn's moons shepard its
rings..
But then I dunno..
What do you think...?

[DocHoliday]

First of, why do you need the invisible planet? Is it to stabilise the other two on their path around the sun? Maybe if
you put them farther appart and make the invisible planet heavier that would do the trick? Wish you could drop it though, it's very unrealistic and will play havoc when trying to navigate around the planets in a vessel...

Can you send me what you have now, so I can try it and not ask silly questions?



Post Edited (04-07-04 10:49)

[freespace2dotcom]

yeah, sure, give me a few minutes, and I'll send it to your email, just promise not to criticize it TOO badly, ok?

Edit: OK, I sent it.. (yeah, I really didn't need to edit this, but I wanted to.. rather than post another message..



Post Edited (04-07-04 11:34)

[DocHoliday]

I got it, thanks.

Criticize? Me? I'm far too curious as to see how one actually does it!

I'll check it out in the afternoon when I get home.

Cheers,

[Krytom]

Um. Doc. I don't know if you've noticed but you're no longer an 'Instructor Pilot'.

[DocHoliday]

Ah, thanks didn't actually, but in my heart I am still one

[harmsway]

DocHoliday wrote:

>
> I have some skill with Photoshop, but none with making textures
> for planets. How do you go about it exactly?
>

This page shows you how I do it.

http://www.eharm.net/shop/freeware/orbiter/tutorials/solar_system/custom_planets.html

Gene

[freespace2dotcom]

harmsway wrote:


> This page shows you how I do it.
>
> http://www.eharm.net/shop/freeware/orbiter/tutorials/solar_system/custom_planets.html
>
> Gene


yeah dude, it's awesome, but I haven't photshop anyways. I'll take it into consideration for sure, but
I still need to get the program before I can get the full use of it. of course I realize you were talking to Doc, so I'll
just sit and watch.. later..

But now is sleep time. I've pretty much exhausted the caffiene supply in my blood

plus my stomach will burst soon, I just failed to win a "eatathon" contest at my school
I was *literally* about 15 seconds away from finishing my 10th mcdonalds hamburger, (which would have won the
game) but this guy came out of nowhere and took my glory. It's a shame because I was in the lead up until that final
bite.. Okay, so maybe that was a little , but I have nowhere else to vent my steam.. Rest assured that I will finish
my shoddy little solar system someday, and after that.. I'll try and beat dan in making that mothership for the dg3 I
remember people talking about in an earlier conversation. (hey, I can *dream* can't I?)

[DanSteph]

freespace2dotcom wrote:
> my shoddy little solar system someday, and after that.. I'll
> try and beat dan in making that mothership for the dg3 I
> remember people talking about in an earlier conversation. (hey,
> I can *dream* can't I?)

You are welcome to beat me
I think I'll sooner or later have a new work that
will take all my time... so.

Dan

[freespace2dotcom]

Thanks for the green light, but like I said, I'll try to, but I think making a ship'd be far beyond anything this lowly
person is capable of. *points to self* I really can dream really well, but when I try to realize my dreams, they just
aren't nearly as cool. In fact, half of my projects just suck outright.