Need help to moon

[freespace2dotcom]

Eh, I used the realistic fuel setting. By that I mean the fastest fuel consuption for the DG3 you can set in the config
exe. It's possible that I just don't have an efficient way of going to the moon. I can get there, but I just have
problems landing at the base once I'm in lunar orbit. Perhaps I need to use weaker engines? I use the biggest
ones.. Thinking back, I think I also used the payload, and that's probably what drained me of fuel... if I did, then it's
possible to land without the payload, but I'm an extreme person... I can't help but push things to their limits.  still, it's
worth looking into.. I'll probably load orbiter up and try again...

[Simonpro]

Are you sure, i am sure in the Tx manual it says that the Tx can make LEO...

[DocHoliday]

Okay, let me capture all questions:

Eh? I know how well it works, but I need to get to the base first before I can go straight down. that takes fuel
to get
into the right postion, and whatnot... Fuel is too precious (in realistic settings) to make a far more elliptic orbit (to
make it worthwhile), change the plane, and then use more fuel to brake. at best, I can get over brighton beach, but
then I run out of my precious gas and crash half way to landing. of course, I still haven't tried changing my plane
while I'm still a ways away from the moon and on my transit to there... which is something I've been meaning to do,
but I'm lazy...

Okay, ASSUMING you came to the Moon and are in some kind of high orbit. You NEED to change your plane, so you go
over the landing site. Then you lower your orbit to some 100km or so and make it circular, keeping the same plane of
course. Since moon rotates on its axis like a pig, the plane stays where it is.. Then see what your orbital velocity is.
Divide that by your thruster acceleration (pres NUM + for a second and read it off the control panel). This gives you
the time in seconds you will need to reverse to 0. Then calculate (or measure) the distance  you travel in this time. So
all you need to do then, is start braking at the right distance from the landing site and you should fall balistically right
smack onto it. Use the Autoland as you start to seriously drop to the surface so you don't bother with the vertical
speed. The DG will use it's hover engines as needed while you use the main engine to brake horizontally.. Did I
mention you need to go backwards? It's for lazy people like us, ya know

Doc: What is this "autoland autopilot" you speak of?!?
And here I thought I knew everything there was to know about the DGIII

It's new with the DGIII. Umm. I think it's PRO200SPEC7 for AutoHover and PRO200SPEC8 for AutoLand. It manages
vertical speed while going down. Very nicely done. For Earth it works well, but on the Moon it tends to bounce up and
down, because of low gravity The AutoHover is beatiful to fly around the base on Earth. Try it

Are you sure, i am sure in the Tx manual it says that the Tx can make LEO...

Perhaps, but it's VERY difficult. The thing is basically meant to launch it's payload into a LEO and then go back down
to land. It is possible, but you need to manage your fuel carefully... I managed to get it to LEO a few times, but not
the ISS yet but I've seen at least one screenshot where it was docked to ISS. Assuming it wasn't a cheat. You have
to be patient (with the sync that is) and careful with all the burns.. Why would it have a docking port otherwise Will
try again.

[freespace2dotcom]

Well, First off, I tried again. I still used the realistic settings, my favorite most powerful engine, I also used the
payload, so next time, I'll try without it. I tried aligning my plane with brighton beach as I was a good 16000
kilometers away from the moon. It literally blew me away how easy it was, (I was expecting easy, but it took no effort
at all!)  but even with that easiness. I had to use fuel to ajeust my orbit so that I wouldn't crash into the moon
because I chose a bad time to burn. I had enough fuel left to get into a circular orbit at about 200 KM. after that, I
had maybe 200-300 KG of fuel left. when you use it at 11.7 KG a sec, you don't have enough to come to a complete
stop, much less counter-react gravity with any upward thrust. in otherwards. you crash on the surface.   Hard.

[AphelionHellion]

I gotta agree with what you said earlier Free, Mars is the space pilot's planet

I hate to suggest this, Freespace, but perhaps it's just not physically possible to get to the moon with the LEO/ISS fuel
load   Now what you might want to do is use the FuelOrb module from the StationBuilder addon (I don't know if it
comes with Orbiter or not, but it's cool) make a scenario with one in LEO and one in lunar orbit, dock with it in Earth
orbit, take it with ya to the moon, then when it's empty top off with the other one, then land
Actually I think it holds 6000 kgs of fuel. You may only need one.

[freespace2dotcom]

eh, I'll make it to the moon with the realistic settings, even if it kills me! (which it did, sim-wise, several times!) I'll look
into that fuel orb thingy, but I'll try a few other things first. If I do it make it as I want to, It'll be a great
accomplishment for me..

[DocHoliday]

I hate to suggest this, Freespace, but perhaps it's just not physically possible to get to the moon with the
LEO/ISS fuel load  

I do disagree. I'm using default settings on dg3, which is medium engine, ISS&Moon fuel and it's perfectly sufficient.
You guys need to learn the proper procedure to go to Moon. By the numbers.. Hohmann and all that. Not the most
time efficient (a few days sim time), but certainly fuel efficient. When you get close to the Moon (like when Moon
gravity is about 60%), do a few sideways burns (possibly pro and retrograde too) to adjust the approach, just watch
the OrbitMFD. When you get a nice parabola around the moon, just wait for periapsis and burn retro. Sorry for talking
off the top of my head...

And yes, TransferMFD or even TransX may become necessary for that

Hmm.. not to get ahead of myself. How DO you guys go to the Moon. Describe it a little?

Cheers,

[AphelionHellion]

Doc: So the lowest fuel setting is intended to be enough to get to the moon, then? From the surface or from orbit?

It's true that the deltaV required for a Hohmann transfer to the moon from orbit is pretty small - seems the biggest
fuel drain comes in the actual landing.
I hafta go make dinner but when I come back I'll give it a shot.

Quick question - the DGIII engine power differential is just a matter of how fast the fuel is burned, right? The higher
thrust engine burns fuel faster, but no more or less efficiently than the others - so you get the same units of thrust
from the same amount of fuel consumed?
Sounds like it doesn't really matter which engine you use, in that case - your burns just need to be a bit longer with
the lower power engines?

[AphelionHellion]

Speaking of flying to the moon, Apollo 13 is on right now on the sci-fi channel (on the west coast of the US, anyway).
They often play the same movie for a couple days, now and then, though
Anyone get the Sci-Fi channel outside the USA? I'd hope so, it's more fun than a barrel of TV monkeys (sometimes...
Sometimes the movies are so bad they're funny).

[freespace2dotcom]

Doc, you think I don't know of the awesome power of Hohmann transfers?

Bah, it's launching from earth that sucks up most of my fuel! by the time I get into leo, I have about 32% fuel
remaining. By the time I got into a low lunar orbit that crossed brighton beach, I had about 300-400 KG of fuel left.
just not enough..

All you need to do is align planes, set up the transfer mfd like shown, and burn when it needs to shows you to, until
your actual orbit matches the hypothetical one. (which the MFD also shows in this case) pretty dang simple. Anything
else I might need to do is far later on. You might argue that I might hit the moon dead on from this info (I don't know,
I can't read it that well) or that I might encounter it at somewhat high speeds. I can see that..) But I go with what my
actual orbit says after a burn, and not the hypothetical one before. here's what I get just after my burn.



I think you really can't get better than that. proove me wrong though, I'd be glad to improve. There's also that bit of
aligning planes while in lunar orbit, but from now on, I will change them en route to the moon, and not when I'm
there. it's just that amazing that it takes almost no fuel... and beyond that, the other tidbit is (for me at least)
adjusting my orbit so that I don't crash into the moon, which happens sometimes if I don't watch it. in this latest
attempt, I got lucky and got a perfect try by my standards. not only will I not crash, but I'm gonna get a periapsis of
350 KM. not bad... after that is sorted out and I correct course to avoid a headon collision with that floating chunk of
rock if necessary, I just coast until I hit my periapsis, in which case I burn retrograde to capture myself in orbit. at this
point I'm all but outta gas, and in an orbit around the moon at an altitiude of around 300 KM, at a speed of 1600 M/S.
Just not enough gas left to stop completely, much less use hover engines to control my decent.

I might restate that I also bring along 3.5 tons of payload, of which are cheetoes and soda. but that's beside the
point.... I'm certain I can get to the moon surface without the payload now, but I wanna getthere with it to
accomplish something,,,

[DocHoliday]

Hm. Looks about right.. Maybe it really has to do something with the high thrust rating. Maybe the engines actually
burn MORE fuel. Dan will know that.

I will fly to the moon in the afternoon. I'm really curious now. It's been a while, since I've done it, so I have to retry.

[freespace2dotcom]

I looked into the proportions of fuel consuption compared to aceleration, and I got the same proportions. all are as
efficient as the next one. with the only diference being their max output. mark 5 changes fuel into energy at a higher
rate, but it doesn't waste more.

[AphelionHellion]

Hey freespace, when are we gonna get to use those smileys on the forum?  

[freespace2dotcom]

When dan think's that they're cool. until then, they're exclusively mine.

[DocHoliday]

Riiiiight Exclusive my socks!

[freespace2dotcom]

prick. I'm quite tempted to get them hosted somewhere else now.

[freespace2dotcom]

Oh, doc, you're a living legend now, too!

[DocHoliday]

that won't help

[freespace2dotcom]

Oh, well, I still have more smileys than that. HAHA!!



hehehehehehehehehe!!!



Post Edited ( 06-14-04 04:13 )

[DanSteph]

2 living legend on the forum.... 8o

congrat boy !!!

Dan

[freespace2dotcom]

Yes, but I was first.

[DocHoliday]

Heh, now I have to change me sigi again it will have to wait till I come back from work

Cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

Let's get talking about the MOON again, people!

[Shmi]

Freespace What does the R FL smiley represent?

What is the category above living legend? (immortal legend?)

[DocHoliday]

Heh, seems Freespace finally went sleeping.

ROFL = Rolling on the floor laughing although you may hear alternative versions.

What's above living legend is up to dan. Only Admin is higher at the moment.

Cheers,