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Author Topic: Rudder deflection of shuttle wrong  (Read 3827 times)

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Offline Ender

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20 October 2013, 22:13:02
Hello,
 
Discoverd shuttlefleet, and got hooked'in learning to fly the missions, really a beautifull addon.
Two things i have questions about:

First thing is that i noticed that the rudder deflection of the shuttle is switched, when i kick rudder pedal to the left the shuttle yaws to the left as it should, but the deflection of the rudder in outside view is to the right.
The standard atlantis in Orbiter is animated correct.
Can  this be corrected in a way ? (can i do that myself ?)

Second thing: during "TAL zaragosa training" at engine failure (one engine) i have to roll level, this induces a yaw witch set me of course 40 degrees or more.
I can not get it back on course because i have no yaw control at all, is this normal ?

Hope you can help  me out !



Offline Ender

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Reply #1 - 22 October 2013, 17:45:35
Is there someone who can confirm the deflection of the rudder beeing wrong.?
Is there someone who is having the same problem with Yaw control during TAL procedure as i am.

 :wonder:

Hope someone want to reply on this  :eek:

Thanks !


Offline StarLost

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Reply #2 - 22 October 2013, 17:58:12
Okay, two things:

1.  Move your request to the Shuttle Fleet discussion thread so that David413 will get a message of a reply to his thread.

2.  Duplicate your request on Orbiter-Forum.

I haven't experienced what you are, but I haven't run that addon in some time. Also, Dan's forum has just had a complete do-over. It may take a bit of time for the others to pay attention and respond. In the meantime, patience is.

Cheers, mate.


Offline Ender

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Reply #3 - 22 October 2013, 18:03:00
Got it...

Thanks for the reply.. :)


Offline SolarLiner

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Reply #4 - 22 October 2013, 18:05:51
He posted it on OF but as David no longer updates the SF thread there it's better to do it here.

But for the bug I didn't see it, as I am on the Cockpit view while landing. Might be right, let's see ...


Offline Cras

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Reply #5 - 22 October 2013, 21:22:14
Next time I fly the Shuttle Fleet I will look and see if I get the same thing. 

Orbiter | SSMS2007 | FSX

Offline David413

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Reply #6 - 23 October 2013, 03:13:04
When in flight, the rudder is auto-coordinated with the ailerons for turning such that all turns have no "slip" (as the actual shuttle flew).  When you attempt to provide input to the rudder only, the auto-coordination routine will fight the slip with opposite rudder.  When the shuttle lands, during the runway roll-out, the auto-coordination is removed and the rudder will respond to manual inputs.


Offline Ender

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Reply #7 - 23 October 2013, 19:43:35
Thanks for the answer David, but that sounds a bit strange to me.

I know about coordinated turns and autopilot in and outputs, but if i step on the pedals to the left or right, there is never a reason to deflect the rudder the opposite way.
The rudder input can be canceled out because of autopilot authority, but in that case it just should not move by input from the rudderpedals.

In the situation i discribed, i fly wings level, and press the rudder pedals to the left , i see the nose yawing to the left (so i got a sideslip) witch is correct.
but if i look at the rudder (witch can be the only reason for causing the yaw to the left), it deflects to the right, witch is not possible in my opinion.

Hope this makes it clearer.

Thanks.

Really ..not complaining, and.. is a small thing...but still........sorry !


Offline David413

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Reply #8 - 23 October 2013, 22:23:32
When I programmed the Shuttle Fleet simulation, I referred to many of the different shuttle training manuals that I have access to.  For the rudder autopilot in particular, I referred to the "Entry Digital Autopilot  (ENTRY DAP 2102)" training manual.  In chapter 9, "Yaw Channel" is states in part: "The rudder,  rudder petals, and forward loop trim integrator become active at Mach 5...The rudder petals function strictly as a bias to the lateral acceleration feedback...In practice, the orbiter is usually flown with the feet on the floor until touchdown, when breaking and steering come into play."  In other words, the rudder petals aren't used during flight as the autopilot auto-coordinates the turns and adjusts the rudder accordingly.  I programmed the auto-coordination so that the rudder petals are not needed in the simulation and shouldn't be used.  The animation behavior may be wrong, but only if the orbiter is flown differently than it actually was.  I can live with the issue as-is for now.


Offline Ender

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Reply #9 - 23 October 2013, 23:28:48
Oke, thanks.
Don't get me wrong, it is a beautifull sim and addon, the fleet is a great addon. and great to experience something that is unreachable in real live.
Love the TAL, RTL challenge and all.

I got 15 years experience as an flight engineer (p3 orion) and did gliding, ultralight and Chessna flight, to me it seems unnatural that with left something go's to right (so i'm a bit to precise i think).

I also don't understand a thing about programming this kind of complex programming and can only immagine the problems it gives to correct something like this and the influence of this correction on the rest of the program.

So thanks again, and i will enjoy the fleet still.


Offline Cras

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Reply #10 - 24 October 2013, 06:36:08
awesome stuff

Orbiter | SSMS2007 | FSX

Offline Ender

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Reply #11 - 24 October 2013, 17:58:31
What...do you...mean..Cras ????!


Offline StarLost

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Reply #12 - 25 October 2013, 02:12:12
Ender, it is a rare thing to have one of the "hi-end" developers explain the rationale behind the development, and for some of us it is very much appreciated when it happens as it tends to be very educational.

While a lot of effort has been made to make Orbiter and its various addons as realistic or true-to-life as possible, Orbiter is still a simulation and, as such, some allowances may be required. Sometimes there are things that only the "hardcore" may notice but are not noticeable to the majority of participants ... nor does it detract from the enjoyment of the simulation.

A P3 flight engineer, eh? Navy or AirForce? I was CAF (now it is once again, thank a forgiving God, RCAF) instrument-electrical, C-130 Hercules. Lots of pleasant memories.  There are quite a few us ex-military types amongst the Orbinauts.  Welcome, friend.


Offline Cras

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Reply #13 - 25 October 2013, 04:02:34
What...do you...mean..Cras ????!

The stuff David413 posted.   I love soaking up shuttle info, I can never get enough of it.

Orbiter | SSMS2007 | FSX

Offline Ender

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Reply #14 - 25 October 2013, 17:57:31
A P3 flight engineer, eh? Navy or AirForce? I was CAF (now it is once again, thank a forgiving God, RCAF) instrument-electrical, C-130 Hercules. Lots of pleasant memories.  There are quite a few us ex-military types amongst the Orbinauts.  Welcome, friend.
[/quote]

The Herc..  :beer:
A lot of similarities with the P3, besides the fact that the Engines seem to be upside down :badsmile
But really ...again a great machine from Lockheed.

I' was a flight Engineer on the P3 orion for the RNLN (Royal Netherlands Navy) from 1991 to 2006 (then they dicided to transfer the aircraft to Germany and Portugal  :rant:). Before that i was a Powerplant specialist on it.
Great aircraft, great ground and flightcrew's, Great missions we flew, Great locations i've bin.(including Halifax, nova scotia  :)). and Yes great memories.

Good to hear from You Starlost,
And to be clear,i really appriciate the direct answer from David and also am amazed of the things he and other developers accomplised in making this simulator this realistic and challenging.

Thanks for the "Heads up".

Cheers..