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Author Topic: Suggestions for the next DG2  (Read 13108 times)

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Offline Arkalius

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18 March 2003, 10:47:02
I've been playing with the DG2 for a bit now and I love it. I thought I'd share some suggestions for
the next version and see what everyone thinks. I'm thinking these would be pretty easy to
implement...

Button covers for the APU power button and the Gen1 and Gen2 buttons. It's pretty easy to avoid
clicking on them, but I'd think that realistically, these buttons would be covered since a simple
mispress can shut down the entire ship (and for a good 10-20 seconds too if you hit the APU
power button). They don't have to be big red covers, maybe just a transparent plastic one. It
could automatically close after the button is pressed, or not.

On the bus selector nob, off should be the rightmost option, followed by Gen1, then Gen2, then
emergency power. As it is, you need to move through the "Off" state to switch between
generators. There's no real reason at this point I guess to switch generators, but it would make
sense to have it this way.

If it wouldn't be too much trouble, I'd like to have the hover thruster throttle back on the main
console. I don't know if it can fit anywhere, but it would be nice to have it if possible.

A manual switch between RCS and atmospheric mode would be kinda neat... I don't know what
others think about this, but I think it would make sense... Also, atmospheric controls don't respond
if the RCS pump is off. I can see why this would happen from a coding perspective, but it doesn't
make sense realistically. Can this be fixed?

ATC sounds play in the DG2 regardless of the setting in OrbiterSound. This is kind of annoying :)

Ok and now for some questions:

What is the difference between Locked and Off mode for the O2/N2 tanks?

Why does atmospheric flight with the nose-cone open kill you? I can see it damaging the ship (ie
making the nose-cone inoperable), and increasing drag, but I don't know why it would kill you...


Keep up the great work Dan...


-Arkalius

Offline DanSteph

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Reply #1 - 18 March 2003, 13:53:35
About button I'm sorry but I cannot rework constantly the panel to fit
the tast of anyone.... this would be a neverending storry. Also cache button
are boring to design.

About ATC:
-------------
What setting you want exactly ? if it's off this is pretty easy
using radio MFD (shf R) and switching to a non exsisting frequency
or leaving the radio button OFF in the DG2
appart ON/OFF the DG2 doesn' owerwrite the radio's setting.

HOVER:
---------
No place unless I redesign the panel sorry.

RCS:
-----

I'll add this one after adding the HUD when I will know
how many place I have on the middle panel.


Locked close a special valve that need power to be kept open
so there is no risk that the auto valve open himslef it's a security.
This valve can be opened manually (with some tool) if power
fail.

The nose cone kill you if temp is >100° as the outter and inner door aren't at all
designed to resist such temperature and pression , they broke leading to more
failure that conduce to the loss of the vessel and the death for crew .... (I increased the
temperature a bit in the next version. )
I don't think for real that flying with such door open at those speed will only broke
the nose door and increase just a bit the drag. Most plane where lost
with less problem.


Dan


Bloke

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Reply #2 - 18 March 2003, 15:02:36
Has anyone thought of making a payload bay for the DG?

The crew compartment area could be changed?

Im not a model maker or coder so ignore this if its a totally silly idea!!


Offline derek411

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Reply #3 - 18 March 2003, 15:27:32
Dan
Love your work, just fantastic.
But since you want ideas..... ummm i was wondering if you could implement some kind of solar
power. I don't know why but running an APU in space just doesn't cut it for me. They need air of
course. Maybe the logic of the ship could be that the APU auto shutdown at a certian ALT. with the
electrcal bus switching to the Batts. until we are in orbit then solar panels could be used to
produce power...... i don't really need the model to show this, but if you were to make some
changes on the panel, this would be cool. I know this would not be easy to add, but i could hope
and wish.
All the best,,keep up the good work.
Derek Radunske
Avionics Tech


Offline Quaxo

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Reply #4 - 18 March 2003, 18:58:24
Derek,
Not every APU needs air - the airliners' APUs do, but others don't. The Shuttle's APUs, for example,
are hydrazine-fueled turbines, and can (and MUST) be operated in space. And they don't need air
(they use a "catalytic bed" to start a reaction which decomposes the hydrazine, generating hot
gas). I can just suppose that the DG2's APU's are like the ones on the Shuttle... :)
Maybe the "startup sequence" of the DG2 is wrong though - I mean, I don't think there are N1 and
N2 in space APUs - and maybe the sounds don't mach the real noise of an hydrazine APU... :)

Cristian


test

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Reply #5 - 18 March 2003, 19:07:44
>Maybe the "startup sequence" of the DG2 is wrong though - I mean, I don't think there are N1
>and N2 in space APUs - and maybe the sounds don't mach the real noise of an hydrazine APU

it's all about candy..... :)


anyways if you have a better sequence message
that match what happen in a shuttle apu at start
I will replace it with yours. (but I'll leave the sound :music:

Dan



Offline bgreman

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Reply #6 - 18 March 2003, 20:06:25
Dan, here's (from my memory) what happens during a (simplified) APU startup:

Hydrazine valve open
N2 valve open (uses n2 gas to push hydrazine through fuel lines)
Isolation and check valves open
Hydrazine and N2 flow nominal
Catalytic bed temperature nominal
Fuel reaction rate nominal
Turbine speed nominal
Throttling APU down to stand-by mode (would match the 'slowing down' sound effect at the end of
the sound sequence)


CRASHBANGRUMBLEBUMPHISS

Houston...we've flushed our toilet.

helipilot

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Reply #7 - 18 March 2003, 20:09:32
Hi there !

just like to know if it's possible to use your panel with an other starship, it's so great that I can't fly
with an other vessel due to you :-)

thanks again !

Helipilot


Offline DanSteph

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Reply #8 - 18 March 2003, 20:27:17
Sorry the model is really imbricated into the code.....

Dan


helipilot

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Reply #9 - 18 March 2003, 20:58:28
snifr ! i knew about this :-(((( so DGII is my only ship now ;-)


Offline sebfly

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Reply #10 - 18 March 2003, 23:07:57
No No No it's mine..... :)


Offline derek411

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Reply #11 - 19 March 2003, 01:03:13
:stupid: or im ignorant. Non the less ty to Cristian for setting me straight. I think it was the N1
stuff that was throwing me off.

Derek

:wc: I JUST LOVE THIS SMILEY. ALL HAIL TO THE SMILEY GODS


Offline Quaxo

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Reply #12 - 19 March 2003, 09:06:29
Derek: I was sort of lucky... I installed the DG2 just after reading the Shuttle's Systems manual I
found on the web - and this has a LOT of info on the APU... So the N1 message was what seemed
strange to me! :)

Dan: About the sound... I like the "spin up" sound (after all, there IS a turbine), what I don't like is
the "spin down" - it would be nice if the noise just fades away to zero. The spin down could be
used if you turn off the APU... ;-)
And, the startup sequence from bgreman is good, but I seem to recall another thing - prior to APU
startup, the main hydraulic pump must be set to LOW PRESSURE, else the APU won't start (too
much load on the shaft); after successful startup, the HYD PUMP PRES can go back to NORM. It
would be nice to see the computer listing through all these steps!!! :)

Cristian


Offline bgreman

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Reply #13 - 19 March 2003, 13:20:32
Thing is though, on the DGII, the hydraulic system is off by default (because it is electrically
operated).  In fact, I think that what Dan is modelling with his APU doesn't really exist.  It's an
electrical generator powered by a mechanical engine.  This is weird, as most space electrical
systems are powered by fuel cells.  On the shuttle, the APUs are used to drive mechanical systems
(the hydraulic pump and the lube oil pump).  The shuttle's electrical systems are independent of
the APUs.  But Dan's idea WOULD work.  It's a hi-tech version of a steam generator.  The hot N2
gas liberated in the reaction chamber could theoretically be used to drive a magneto, generating
current and thus electricity.

So the DGII is a fundamentally different monster from the shuttle APU, as it drives no mechanical
systems.  I think Dan should keep it as is (perhaps with my new startup sequence), unless he
wants to be really accurate and rename the whole thing as 'Fuel Cell'.

Additionally, it would be neat to implement an engine and APU cooling system.  It could be a small
switch on the engine panel for the engine cooling, a small switch near the APU system for APU
cooling, and perhaps the whole thing could be powered by the main bus.  It would use an electric
motor to circulate freon over the hot parts of the engine or APU and through radiative cooling
loops just under the skin in the wings.  I suppose it might be a lot of work for dan (having to keep
track of APU temp and Engine temp), but perhaps just to appease us nuts, a random message on
the system display could say, "Engine/APU cooling initiated"  and "Engine/APU cooling terminated".
If he DID choose to implement the whole system, and when failures are finished, imagine the fun
of your cooling system going down at launch...  :D


CRASHBANGRUMBLEBUMPHISS

Houston...we've flushed our toilet.

Harmsway

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Reply #14 - 19 March 2003, 15:03:26
Quote
Dan: About the sound... I like the "spin up" sound (after all, there IS a turbine), what I
don't like is
the "spin down" - it would be nice if the noise just fades away to zero. The spin down could be
used if you turn off the APU... ;-)


Cristian

When the hydrazine enters the catalytic bed the resultant gas spins a high speed turbine. In order
to convert this into useful torque it then spins down into a low speed turbine in the HPU (hydraulic
power unit). The hydraulics are use to move the actuators which then move the engine nozels.

And Bgreman is right about  the fuel cells. The current shuttle APU system is very old technology.
There has been several replacement projects in work to replace this system with newer
technologies. You think Dan takes awhile to put out upgrades, these NASA projects take years.

Fuel cells would be used to run electrical systems much like operations of the Dragonfly.

All that said, I like the way DGII systems are and would not care to see it change. If the APU is to
stay keep the sound the way it is.

Gene


Offline bgreman

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Reply #15 - 19 March 2003, 17:35:53
Notice that I take the 'spin down' sound into account with my 'Throttling APU down into stand-by
mode' line


CRASHBANGRUMBLEBUMPHISS

Houston...we've flushed our toilet.

Offline canadave

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Reply #16 - 19 March 2003, 19:04:25
One other thing to consider (and Dan, correct me if you disagree) when thinking about changing
the startup/shutdown sequences to be more "realistic" (i.e., more complex) is this: it'll be cool and
fun the first few times, but after awhile, you'll be wanting a simpler startup process just because it
takes too long.  For instance, I'm sure Dan could code the DG2 so that it takes 15 minutes to start
a whole bunch of "realistic" systems ("Toilet check? ON! Galley dehydrated ice cream dispenser
switch? ON!"), but do you really want to go through that elaborate process each time you start a
scenario with the DG2?

The first bunch of times I started the DG2 and went through the startup checklists, I was in awe at
the added realism that it brought to Orbiter.  Now, I'm still in awe, but I also have created some
scenarios where everything is already on and set.  If I had to use a DG2 where there was a much
more elaborate startup process, I think I'd just stick to the old version.  Don't get me wrong, I love
having the systems and the bells and whistles and candy, but sometimes I just want to get in and
fly, you know? :)

Cheers,
Dave


Offline DanSteph

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Reply #17 - 19 March 2003, 19:42:03
canadave wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, I love
> having the systems and the bells and whistles and candy, but
> sometimes I just want to get in and
> fly, you know? :)


Dave you are a wise man (and a fine translator) :)

I'v changed the start message to match the bregman's one but I don't plan to
rework the start sequence... nor the button. there is too much work to go
and I find really boring to rework old stuff... sorry. (appart buggy or some others things)

In fact at start I only planed to add one or two button to the stock deltaglider
There was no plan and not global idea of the things this explain some inconsistancy
in the panel.  I promise my next work (if I'm still alive :) ) will be more consistant.

About start sequence I bypass it often an even run the emergency power
to avoid this start sequence... :)  this said I fly often less than 20 seconde just to test a things. But I go throught the whole sequence and have fun with it when I plan a long trip.... for relaxing of programing.

Dan


Offline bgreman

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Reply #18 - 19 March 2003, 19:48:23
I totally agree.  In fact, aside from the 'cooling' (which would be perfectly fine as just a random
message appearing on the system display), I'm don't think there's much else to add.  What other
parts of the spacecraft systems COULD be modeled?  Dan's pretty much got it all covered.  And I'm
not proposing adding all the valve switches and stuff from my startup to the APU routine.  Just
having those messages come across when you start it up.  If I want an uber-realistic systems
simulator, I'll go play VI's Shuttle, or the DragonFly. The DGII is a nice mix.  My main thing
about adding the 'cooling' is so that when failures are implemented, it's one more thing to go
wrong.  And I love (I'm a tad masochistic) having many things to go wrong.

As an addition to my previous 'cooling lines' idea, perhaps also some of the air from the air intake
could be diverted to air cooling the APU and engines.

Envision this:
You're halfway through launch ascent, when suddenly the cooling line goes.  Engine temperatures
soar, causing cabin temperatures to increase.  With the excess load on the cabin a/c (from the
lifepack panel), the lifepack circuit break pops.  Cabin temperatures rise even higher and the
O2/N2 pumps are no longer circulating.  The APU is beginning to overheat as well.  Alarms are
going off like crazy.

Solution:
First, you have to cut those engines before they melt.  Open the air intake to commence air cooling
and decide on an RTLS or TAL abort. Check the APU temperature to make sure its still in
operational bounds.  If not, shut it down and swtich to emergency power.  Flip the lifepack circuit
breaker to bring life support back online.  Open the air intake to commence air cooling and decide
on an RTLS or TAL abort.


CRASHBANGRUMBLEBUMPHISS

Houston...we've flushed our toilet.

Offline galileo

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Reply #19 - 19 March 2003, 20:26:47
Hi there!
First, I HAVE to thank you for this fantastic piece of work (or should I say art?), Dan! I Really enjoy
the DII, it is my favorite add on!
Hope you don't get bored by everybody telling you this... :)

Well, about APU & electrics...

There's one really small BUG: If you turn off Gen2, the system display reads Gen1 off.

Apart from that, the only real weakness of an otherwise smart panel layout is, that you have to
move the bus selector via the "OFF" Position in order to change the source generator. In addition
there should also be a posibility to select BOTH generators to spread the load more evenly.

Now I understand that it might be too much work to re-design the whole panel but as an
interimistic work-around: What about adding a 1-2 sec. delay to the bus selector so you can turn it
across the OFF Position without shuting down the whole spacecraft?

Please keep up the cool work!

Galileo


Offline DanSteph

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Reply #20 - 19 March 2003, 20:49:22
Well I know I must one time in my life rework this "1 off 2" issue :)
I just need some more courage to do it :drunk:

About message "gen1" , thanks I wasn't aware of this

Dan


Offline sebfly

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Reply #21 - 20 March 2003, 17:51:53
Hi Dan, I guess while we're at it... :
There is a typo in the word "pressure" spelled wrong (you wrote "pressur") somewhere in the apu
start sequence or the life support system (I don't have Orbiter at work and I am at work...)...
:baaa:

Seb


Offline DanSteph

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Reply #22 - 21 March 2003, 00:51:15
I noticed that but didn't reminded where it was.... if it's in the start message
they are gone, I replaced them with the bgreman's message.

Thanks for input :)

Dan


Cle900

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Reply #23 - 26 March 2003, 15:19:26
Hi
First, thanks for this great ship!

One Question:
  Is there a reason that you can't turn off emergency power?

Cle900


Offline DanSteph

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Reply #24 - 26 March 2003, 18:10:39
Yes this fuel cell doesn't need any power to heat it before run
but the chimical reaction is only "one shot", once started it cannot
be shutted down. Also it's purpose is to run when all else fail so you are not
supposed to stop it. If you want to economize energy shut down the more
system you can, it will last longer.

Dan

« Last Edit: 26 March 2003, 18:10:39 by DanSteph »