OT - What do we know about stars an christmas day?

[ar81]

I was wondering about the date when Christmas took place.
I have heard that there are references to stars, something related to Jupiter.
What do we know about it?

[Dig Gil]

In ancient times (when the christmas day was invent) the religious usually used to use sky to mark dates. One last
thing: that day isn't the day when Jesus Christ was born, that day represents that only and was set up to fit with
another important day for romans. By what I know Jesus born somewhen near spring.

[Urwumpe]

More important, the most fitting theory is that the christmas star was a periodic comet.

But that comet has the problem, that comets are usually seen as a sign of disaster.

[Dig Gil]

I heard about it too! To solve that problem we should consider that the star was:
-A Planet


-A meteor


-An alien spacecraft


-Nothing, just ledgend tolded and "re-tolded"


-Or a pulsar or some big blast on the universe




Post Edited ( 06-03-08 23:00 )

[Kadet]

A super Nova maybe?

[David413]

Kadet wrote:
A super Nova maybe?

I suggest you find the short story by Arthur C. Clarke, "The Star".  Excellent, and along the same lines as your
suggestion.

D

[Kadet]

Dig Gil wrote:
In ancient times (when the christmas day was invent) the religious usually used to use sky to mark dates. One last
thing: that day isn't the day when Jesus Christ was born, that day represents that only and was set up to fit with
another important day for romans. By what I know Jesus born somewhen near spring.

I believe that it was April 26th?  Anyway, maybe, just maybe, it could have been something that was completely
beyond our understanding, we can never be sure of this unless it repeats itself.



Post Edited ( 06-25-08 23:47 )

[Dig Gil]

Then that was an UFO (Undetified Flying Object)

[Colonel Sanders1]

jesus' birthday happens to be the day of the beginning of the age of piecies... hence the <>< fish with jesus written in the
middle

[Dig Gil]

The fish symbol was the symbol used by pre-christians before the use of the cross.

[Urwumpe]

Actually <>< is the German military rank insignia for a Hauptfeldwebel/OR-7/Sergeant First Class (US)/Staff Sergeant (UK). Which again proves our expertize in military matters. Even in pre-christian times, you could rely on the German Army.





Message modifié ( 18-07-2008 10:22 )

[Dig Gil]

[StarLost]

There have been numerous astronomical articles written on this very subject. A simple Google will find many of them.

However, how would you feel if it turns out to be a simple literary device, the same one used in many legends to "herald" the
coming of any important subject?  The Judeo/Christian bible is not above such devices.  Note the seeming preponderance of
"virgin births" throughout religious and heroic literature.  It could well be that new stars in the heavens and virgin births
are the ancient equivalents of current advertising hype (the latest movie of the century, the ultimate tech toy ... )

As for a supernova, it is not possible.  It would have been observed and chronicled in other places.  The search for such an
occurence in the astronomical chronicles of China, the Middle East and Middle America has, so far, revealed no such event
even close to the time frame specified.

As for "What do we know about the stars at christmas day?", actually we know quite a bit.  Most current planetarium programs are capable of showing the known sky at that time. Adjusting the time constants will permit you to observe the passage of planetary bodies to see how close they appear to approach each other.  

Of course, it is not possible to include spontaneous, otherwise unobserved elsewhere, celestial events ... but that is the point of belief as opposed to intellectual derivation, isn't it?



Post Edited ( 07-23-08 22:15 )

[Dig Gil]

StarLost wrote:
(...) As for "What do we know about the stars at christmas day?", actually we know quite a bit.  Most
current planetarium programs are capable of showing the known sky at that time. Adjusting the time constants will
permit you to observe the passage of planetary bodies to see how close they appear to approach each other. (...)

You mean Celestia?
(Sorry, I use a Portuguese version, but I translated and hope used the right terms)





Post Edited ( 07-26-08 21:53 )

[StarLost]

Dig Gil wrote:


You mean Celestia?
(Sorry, I use a Portuguese version, but I translated and hope used the right terms)

Celestia will do as good as any of them.  Arrange it so that you are at an observer site somewhere in the mid-East, I would
suggest Babylon, oriented toward the west (Bethlehem) and then alter the time constants to watch how the sky appears to change.

The point of the exercise is an attempt to show that the descriptions of the celestial event as described in the Christian
Bible are duplicatable in the planetarium program and thus "prove" the "historical accuracy" of the Christmas story.

The methodology of using astronomical descriptions in literature to pinpoint historical dates is well accepted.
Unfortunately, this method has not yet born fruit for those trying to "prove" anything about the Christmas story.  It
probably won't as the Christian Bible is not literature in the classical sense.  It is true that some references in the
Christian Bible have been corroborated by scientific methods (archeology, etc.), but this event is not one of them.

[Quick_Nick]

I believe that the varying calenders, leapyears, etc. make it a little more difficult to go to the exact date or time of the
birth of Jesus. Going to year 0 in a program like Celestia is probably innacurate.



Post Edited ( 07-28-08 06:26 )

[StarLost]

Quick_Nick wrote:
I believe that the varying calenders, leapyears, etc. make it a little more difficult to go to the exact date or time of the
birth of Jesus. Going to year 0 in a program like Celestia is probably innacurate.

I think you are missing a major part of the point.  There is no firmly determined date for the Christmas event. What you have
to do is to go back to an arbitrary date prior to Christmas event, say 10 BCE and run the planetarium from that point
forward, observing how the sky changes to see if something could be interpreted as the "star of Bethlehem". What you are
likely looking for is a particular conjunction of planets, though how a planetary conjunction could be interpreted as a new
"star" is beyond me.  Astronomical observers of that time period new well the difference between planets, stars. and comets.

It is doubtful if the writers of the Gospels had any astronomical training, hence their use of literary metaphor.

As for choosing a date, Julian dates are just fine. You are going to bracket the time period anyway.

[Dig Gil]

All planetarium programs I know don't show all the space bodies, only bigger ones, then if the story of the "Star" is
truth, but the "star" was actualy something like a small meteor we will never know.
What we really need is some kind of time travelling system, like a DeLorean :P.

[Quick_Nick]

StarLost wrote:
I think you are missing a major part of the point.  There is no firmly determined date for the Christmas event. What
you have
to do is to go back to an arbitrary date prior to Christmas event, say 10 BCE and run the planetarium from that point
forward, observing how the sky changes to see if something could be interpreted as the "star of
Bethlehem". What you are
likely looking for is a particular conjunction of planets, though how a planetary conjunction could be interpreted as a
new
"star" is beyond me.  Astronomical observers of that time period new well the difference between planets,
stars. and comets.

It is doubtful if the writers of the Gospels had any astronomical training, hence their use of literary metaphor.

As for choosing a date, Julian dates are just fine. You are going to bracket the time period anyway.

Ah. I see what you mean.

[Colonel Sanders1]

i love bananas.

[Dig Gil]

That time there was no bananas on middle East or Europe neither North America (I think).

[StarLost]

Do you have data?

At least one Egyptian mummy has been found to have the remains of coca leaves or coca extract in the preparation of their
mummification.  The voyages of the RA and RA 2 illustrated that the large reed boats could have allowed communication by sea.
 The discoveries of the ships at the Great Pyramid show that Egyptians had the technical capability of building the required
ships.

The Olmec collossal heads certainly show African influence.  Prechristian Chinese anchor stones have been found in Acapulco Bay.

Indeed there is also the suggestion that one or more early wrecks, perhaps Roman or previous, lie in Brazilian waters.

Modern science, much like modern religion, assumes nothing much happened before we happened along.  Too many assumptions
based on too little hard data.

So, if coca made it over ... why not bananas?

[Dig Gil]

Because they have too frightening shapes to be used for anything, whatever it is!




Post Edited ( 08-24-08 22:31 )

[StarLost]

Oh, I love it!! Simple wonderful ....


Kind of reminds me of my first ex-wife. :D :D :D