A word from Martin Schweiger - Orbiter on ebay

[DanSteph]

Received a mail from him so I thought it would be cool to post some news: (I'll inform him of this post)

First he is aware of the M6 forum problem, he notified them and await a response.

On an unrelated note he saw on a M6 post that some peoples now sell Orbiter
on ebay and make good money with it. Martin said "I am not easily irritated,
but this is beyond the pale"

He said also: "I don't have the time to trawl ebay on a regular basis, but if
you happen to come across similar listings, let me know. I would
be interested to see how widespread the problem is."

So it would be cool if some are regular user of ebay to check from time to time
and warn Martin if this happen again.

Dan



Message modifié ( 24-03-2007 04:06 )

[Quick_Nick]

And in the ebay thing, they actually claim to be some other game making company. They tell it's freeware and that
$10-$20 is supposed to be used to 'cover the costs' that they spend for CD etc. They have other freeware games and random items being sold.



Post Edited ( 03-24-07 05:00 )

[Urwumpe]

I think $20 is already pretty much, especially as it tries to hide that Orbiter was done by Martin Schweiger.

[willy88]

Found a "baddie":

7_W0Qhttp://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-VisionQuest-SPACE-FLIGHT-SIMULATOR-200QitemZ180098106114QQcategoryZ62053QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

[strike4330]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-VisionQuest-SPACE-FLIGHT-SIMULATOR-2007_W0QQitemZ180099105849QQcategoryZ62053QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Urwumpe]

strike4330 a écrit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-VisionQuest-SPACE-FLIGHT-SIMULATOR-2007_W0QQitemZ180099105849QQcategoryZ62053QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

OK, now thats what i call shameless.

Lets ensure this guy will never even think of orbiter without feeling a pain in his wallet...

[Orbiter Fan]

Urwumpe wrote:
OK, now thats what i call shameless.

Indeed. I wonder why he keeps trying? Any idea on how to shut him down for good?

[Urwumpe]

Orbiter Fan a écrit:

Urwumpe wrote:
OK, now thats what i call shameless.

Indeed. I wonder why he keeps trying? Any idea on how to shut him down for good?

1. get his address
2. get a lawyer and sent him a cease and desist.
3. if he does not follow, get him in front of a court.

BTW: Isn't it funny that he got all his positive reviews with Elvis CDs, where the buyers often shared his own tag "tc" in
front of their nick? Thats how you become a top rated power seller: you buy this status.

[gawinnard]

It's a crying shame that there are some individuals who rip off other's hard work. Ebay should ban for life if there are any
copyright issues. In this case I wonder if they 'hacked' the game to remove martin's name. Annoying thing is that he/she/them
have 'sold' this product before, just look in the fee back list:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180091043577
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180091842931
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180091842931
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180077924916

Pity I left my old job a few years back were I could of mass produced CD's, passed them to Martin and through either an
OSCommerce website link directly to Orbiter, sold the 'media' there for around a couple of euros + a modest Packing & Postage
cost, for people who don't have a high speed internet access.

[gawinnard]

strike4330 wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-VisionQuest-SPACE-FLIGHT-SIMULATOR-2007_W0QQitemZ180099105849QQcategoryZ62053QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This one is going for over 100 dollars, This is fraud, period.

[Katahu]

God, I hate pirates!

This is why I never trusted Ebay since its birth. Not only is it a haven for pirateers, but those pirateers manage to find
loopholes and such to avoid getting caught. I hate pirates [aka Bastards].

[Quick_Nick]

"I will NOT refund this game after it has been opened for any reason."
That sucks for anyone who buys it. The true credits are shown in the Launchpad, but then it's too late.

[Urwumpe]

Quick_Nick a écrit:
"I will NOT refund this game after it has been opened for any reason."
That sucks for anyone who buys it. The true credits are shown in the Launchpad, but then it's too late.

Well, thats why copyright issues are even worse for freeware: You make a gift to the world, but when somebody decides to make
money with your work, you have to hope for a good judge. My personal experience with the issue is: Soft force does not work,
it only makes them change the concept and breed new pirates. You can only solve this well by applying as hard force as
possible on those, who you can get, and be tolerant on those you didn't see...

[killingsnake]

Can't believe someone would pay so much for unknown software (VisionQuest space flight simulator 2007 ??).
Besides, look at the bidding history. 2 bids by the same person, going from 50 to 100 dollar. Maybe someone
threatened him or something and he's buying with a second account himself? But then, this is not the first time, why
stop now? B*st*rd...

[ar81]

To me it looks like it is a good moment for Martin to ask a lawyer about how to make that guy to refund the buyers or
to pay Martin or go to jail.  This whole issue makes me feel very angry on that guy.

[Space Snoopy]

The best answer could be if one offers the "Space Flight Simulator" for nothing (0,00 Euro or $) at Ebay. A description
should be added with the link where the software could be downloaded for nothing. It should be added that all other offers
are illegal or only to make money although the software is for free!

[ar81]

I have come to some ideas:

1.AFAIK, the FBI investigates alegations of piracy, so it suggests me that piracy is a federal crime.  Since eBay is under US
jurisdiction, the pirate could be in real trouble.

2.The software is protected under UK copyright law, so my bet is that UK authorities (Scotland Yard I presume) could also be
involved in this matter.

3.My bet is that piracy is not a civil matter, but a penal matter.  If it is penal, the government investigates and prosecute
the criminal, unlike civil cases where a part starts a lawsuit on another.

In any case legal advise is required to know what type of case this is, the applicable jurisdiction and also if it is a
federal crime or not.    And I think that denouncing before the authorities it is a must, either before US or UK authorities.

How could Martin prove his software is his?
Even if the guy changed the splash screen, the credits in the launchpad would reflect the ownership.
And also the fact that Martin has the source code, and the fact that M6 and Dan Steph forums have been up for years crediting
the work of Martin.

My bet is that $100 or even $1000 isn't worth the price of being accused for a federal crime.
So if the pirate pays more than he earned, it might teach him not to do it again.
And also eBay could be involved.
Even if eBay claims no responsibility, if they are warned about the crime and they do nothing, then they may also have penal
responsibility.  So my bet is that only if eBay agrees on providing the necessary data for the investigation to prosecute the
guy, eBay may save itself from being prosecuted for helping a criminal to materialize his crime.

My bet is that some charges could apply here.
Piracy in the first place, fraud, scam, identity theft, and depending on the laws and the whereabouts of the way the money
reached the criminal, money laundering could apply.
In any case legal advise is needed.
I bet Greg Burch (he is a lawyer) could help in all this.
I think it could be a nice way to pay off the effort of Martin.

[ar81]

BTW, the M6 down and the questions on how to change splash screen weren't related to this??
I find it to be a horrible coincidence...

[Urwumpe]

ar81 a écrit:

3.My bet is that piracy is not a civil matter, but a penal matter.  If it is penal, the government investigates and prosecute
the criminal, unlike civil cases where a part starts a lawsuit on another.

How could Martin prove his software is his?
Even if the guy changed the splash screen, the credits in the launchpad would reflect the ownership.
And also the fact that Martin has the source code, and the fact that M6 and Dan Steph forums have been up for years crediting
the work of Martin.

Number 3 is annoyingly wrong - its a civil case. Martin has to notice the crime and report it to the authorities. But: When a
judge gives Martin his right, the contracts between UK and USA would force the US authorities to also persecute this guy. I
would prefer if such a result would also lead to a complete ban of the guy in the UK or EU economy - no bank accounts, no
selling of goods, his name on a black list for the border control authorities.

Also its pretty easy to show that both programs are equal, even if the guy changed everything he can, using a resource
editor. The signature of Orbiter.exe will be the same:



Like you can see quickly: There are many important values and symbols (the viewport in the right center) in Orbiter.exe,
which you will only get if you build your own program either by recompiling the original orbiter sources or did just edit
Orbiter.exe. If another program has the same symbols defined as another program, you can assume that it is equal. Even if the
guy claims that he developed his software to be compatible to orbiter, the addresses in the dynamic link tables should vary.
Or should have a different file size. Or a different time stamp. or a different version information.

Two equal programs are the copmputer equivalent of identical twins.

[DanSteph]

Unless you have many money to spend, it's better to let it drop and simply ask that such
pages are closed, this is a neverending work I know but that's actuall life on internet.

For those that don't know me I'm independant and sell software on net, 80% of my work
is used illegaly or even sold by other on ebay and other place so I know a bit the subject.
If you're a small/middle company there is absolutely no way to make this stop unless you
want to spend thousand dollars when you gain hundred.

Good or bad, not my point here, actually piracy and people that make unfair
money with other's work can't be stopped simply... you may just slow
them a bit in a neverending fight.

anyway forget FBI and others, they can't and will not do anything,
No time, no money for such small case... imagine for a freeware.
(I had a very bad case with evidences, tried with a laywer, was long, costly and ended nowhere)

Dan



Message modifié ( 25-03-2007 01:03 )

[skookum]

I believe the solution is to promote Orbiter more heavily around the internet. Emphasize the fact that it is freeware. Spend
a little money in the right places and enough folks will discover Orbiter on their own and take business away from the
fraudsters. But you can never eliminate the problem completely

[Quick_Nick]

I think it is well promoted. The problem is, someone in ebay may not be using Google or anything to search for these
things or look anywhere. They will just see the illegal copy and have no way of learning of the real Orbiter. The only
things they find is what there search filter brings up.

[DanSteph]

skookum a écrit:
I believe the solution is to promote Orbiter more heavily around the internet. Emphasize the fact that it is freeware.

Illiterate people in computer are the clients of such guy, promotion can't do anything for them
as they aren't used to research of informations, only education can change that but as the number
of internaut grow exponentially you'll always have newbies that do dumb things. Remember zombie
computer.

Dan

[ar81]

eBay should have a legal responsibility in copyright violations like these.

I recall the case of Chiquita Brands that was before the court of justice for paying Colombian terrorists some 'security fees'.
In the case if P2P there was not money involved, so P2P companies could argue that they had no 'active role' in the crime,
but in the case of eBay, eBay is paying the guy, by crediting money, and if they are aware of the crime, they are part of the
scam.

The fact of having computer illiteracy is irrelevant for legal purposes.
I think eBay could be in more serious trouble than they think.

But since the interest of Martin may not be to spend long time in a case with eBay, and eBay may not like to suffer a
scandal, I bet there are good chances that eBay may be willing to collaborate.  If they don´t collaborate, such illegal
transactions may get them into serious trouble for only a few dollars.  And if news spread about how easy is to sell illegal
stuff on eBay, they may face even more criminal charges in the future.  So they way out for eBay, if they are smart enough,
should be to take corrective actions to prevent such cases in the future, and they cannot argue that they have a passive
role, for even if payment is automated, they are actually paying the scammer and therefore being part of a crime.

[EtherDragon]

Lets be clear about the license distinction...

Launch Orbiter, select the About Tab, and click on the Disclaimer button...

"ORBITER is free software in the sense that you are free to download, copy and redistribute it, provided that the
copyright notice is retained in the copy. You are not allowed to charge a fee for the software without the consent of
the author other than that to cover the cost of the distribution. If a fee is charged it must be made clear to the
purchaser that the software is freeware and that the fee is to cover the distributor's costs of providing the software. "

So... while it's really greasy to distribute Orbiter over E-Bay, as long as they are mentioning that the software is free
and that the copywrite belongs to Martin S. then they are allowed to distribute it however they wish and recover
whatever distribution costs they have. If I wanted to list "Orbiter Space Flight Simulator 2006" on E-Bay for the cost of the CD, and have the customer pay the shipping, I'm allowed to do so.

However, they are not allowed to profit from the distribution... they can't charge $50 and claim that they are covering
the cost of distribution for what would ammount to about $5 in materials and shipping. Nor can they re-package it under another title as it's still Copywrite material and intelectual property of Martin S.

As responsible people we should post comments about on these e-bay "distributors" to clear up any confusion. Sure,
suing them will likely go nowhere... but we, the faithful supporters of Marin and Dan's work can do what we can to
make sure that the correct information is out there for the public to find.

On that note, I'm going to do an E-Bay search for similar postings and leave some comments...



Post Edited ( 03-25-07 19:04 )