weapons in Orbiter

[oli_chose123]

ok ok, i know what you are gonna say, that orbiter is not a space shooter, but a simulator.. ok
but even if its a simulator, ships like the shuttle A and the DG aren't very realistic, and show what the future would look
like, and everybody know what humans are capable, and one of the first thing to be invented after the space drive will be a
effective space weapon. i know that orbiter was not made to shoot, not even talking about visible damages, but that would be
cool. and damages could be used for other things like asteroids or station impacts.

i saw not a long time ago a delta-fighter, a modified DG with lasers, and if we had collision effects and even explosions,
that would simulate Space battles(so orbiter would still be a simulator, but with a space shooter add-on) mods like babylon
5, star trek, and star wars ships would be really cool with real weapons, and explosions would be far more better... say what
you think of it...

im sure it will interest some, at least 1 or 2 modders to make this(a bit like the orbitersound, but now the orbiterweapons
lol) and dont say it will not be realistic, im sure that in some 100 years, we'll hear(if we are still alive lol) about a
space war...

weapons could be just missiles(like some fighters mods)ok particle weapons or phasers(like the delta fighter), or even plasma
weapons... posibilities are infinite.

no space shooters use real physics, its time for this to change...

say what you think

[freespace2dotcom]

I think that'd be cool. But I go to other games for my violence.

not to say that our little solar nations thread is a friendly little grouping, (it's more of a rivalry thing between me and doc) and gun placeholders and warships are all good fun,  but I think that for the most part, any more than that would take away the part of orbiter that makes it so much more different than shootemup software like freespace.



Post Edited ( 01-18-05 01:50 )

[oli_chose123]

Except that space shooters aren't realistics, we needed a game like orbiter to do this. some ships could be equipped with
missiles, or have a hull status bar.

when i discovered some years ago that spcace travels like star wars wheren't possibles, i searched the net to find a game
that would use some realistics flights. i found it, but there is still no weapons... some 23rd century ships could use weapons...

[freespace2dotcom]

Meh, the reason why completely realistic physics aren't included in the average shooter like star wars or whatever is
because in real life, space flight is *completely* different from atmospheric flight, which is basically what games like
star wars and freespace are REALLY like. (minus ground and gravity, of course)

The focus on orbiter is with realism, and in the future, real space warfare will be vastly different from what's in the
arcades today. the fast-paced arcade stuff that you want in orbiter. If you want missiles and fighters and all that
other semi-realistic weaponry, then you can get them in their own semi-realistic setting. If you want orbiter's full
realism, then get realistic ships to go with it, and trust me, it won't be nearly as fun.


I'm not saying that orbiter can't be bent, (nor shouldn't) to do this sort of stuff. Indeed, the potential is unlimited, as
you said, but as for most of us... we're in it for the boring realism. Stuff like burning into retrograde lunar orbits, which
need math, and evil, evil formulas. but not arcade stuff.

we get enough of that on CNN.

[oli_chose123]

im not tralking about transforming orbiter in an arcade, just install weapons, the sentence i said about realism, that was
just for the one that WANT realisms, i prefer sc fi ships like babylon 5. i read the post about the solar nations, and
fighters WOULD be neededs, or at least, big armed ships( capitol ships). i know some of you are against war(especially the
ones who thinks CNN is enough, see post below lol, im joking) but im sure this would interest some...

[DanSteph]

It would be possible but I know that some will not like that...
about me I don't care because I would need far more than a "hull" bar
to not be bored by a "war" in Orbiter... something like I-WAR if someone recall this game ?

In fact it would have to be a complete new game with a lot of options
and screen to be fun... otherwise it's just hitting a button then
you have a message on screen saying "1000km far target was hit"
or "you miss"  nothing really exciting.


Dan

[oli_chose123]

it could be a bit more than that actually lol
ok we dont have any AI, that could be the next step, even if it would be really complicated...

[freespace2dotcom]

DanSteph wrote:
In fact it would have to be a complete new game with a lot of options
and screen to be fun... otherwise it's just hitting a button then
you have a message on screen saying "1000km far target was hit"
or "you miss"  nothing really exciting.

Dan

yes, and you'd have to have special engine configs, as fighters wouldn't be able to dogfight without them, and before
you know it, you've got a new star wars game...

[Test pilot]

I think then that Oli_chose 123 want to say is then the fighters would have the same engines config then the other
ships.  With that, orbiter will remain realistic.
I think then that is a good idea and people who don't like that have just to dont download the add-on

(i am sorry for my bad english, I try to learn the language but it is hard...)

[freespace2dotcom]

(i am sorry for my bad english, I try to learn the language but it is hard...)

Oh, cum on. engrish is EZ as 3.1415

[StarLost]

The opening paragraph in the Orbiter PDF says it all ...

Orbiter is NOT a space shooter.  Never was. Hopefully, never will be.

If you want your version to be a shooter also, program the addons yourself.

If the gaming community thought there were enough people that they could make a buck with a "realistic" space shooter, they'd
have done it long ago. The market simply isn't there.

If you really got one on for a realistic shooter, do what Martin did when he wanted a realistic space flight simulator.  Go
out and learn to program your own.

[DocHoliday]

Well, I'm not categorically against military versions of addons as indeed most rockets in reality (and as orbiter
addons) were in fact some sort of ballistic missiles..

BUT... you all mentioned this a few times already here and I also asked this question on the main forum:

If you were to have addons that would shoot and keep track of damage and all that, this is all nice and fine. But,
imagine the actual multiplayer game. You spent countless hours, chasing your target, burning insane amounts of fuel,
transfer orbiting, changing planes, syncing orbits and whatnot.. In the end, when you EVENTUALLY do meet your
target in space, for a few seconds only before you drift around for another orbit.. it all comes down to who is the
more accurate shooter.

So, yes there is potential, but in Orbiter it would be extremely boring, which is WHY none of the space combat game
DARE use realistic physics, because it would just suck to damn much.. The closest to real I've ever seen were Frontier
(and we all know how lonely and bored one felt between destinations), some sort of free Babylon 5 game and I think
it was one of the I-WAR variants.. The rest use flight sim, X-wing-style controls which are fun and require a lot of skill,
but totally unrealistic..

The only military applications for Orbiter as I was advised and I agree are: recon flights, orbital bombardment, spy
imaging, station sabotage and the like. Boring, but I always prefered sniper missions to assults, even in 1st person
shooters And you don't even need multiplayer for these

Cheers,

[Ghostrider]

DocHoliday wrote:

The only military applications for Orbiter as I was advised and I agree are: recon flights, orbital bombardment, spy
imaging, station sabotage and the like. Boring, but I always prefered sniper missions to assults, even in 1st person
shooters And you don't even need multiplayer for these

Yeah, me too! My favourite Raven Shield scenario is a lone wolf mission with AW sniper rifle and thermal imager,
silenced pistol, tear gas grenades and heartbeat sensor against 35 Tangoes in any wide area.

Could a telescope/camera MFD be implemented in the new Orbiter 2005? Then we can go spying over some hot
zones. BTW, seen the JAG episode "The One Who Got Away" where Harm gets to fly the Aurora recon plan over the
Korean DMZ - recon ain't always boring.

Anyway, space combat may end up feeling like submarine warfare, and there's a good base for that, too.

Would it be possibile to have scripted sequences in Orbiter 2005? It could be useful to implement ASAT or SA missiles -
 guidance could use some code from Interplanetary MFD.

[DocHoliday]

Ghostrider wrote:
Yeah, me too! My favourite Raven Shield scenario is a lone wolf mission with AW sniper rifle and thermal imager,
silenced pistol, tear gas grenades and heartbeat sensor against 35 Tangoes in any wide area.

heh, in a real war, eyesight permitting, I'd probably volunteer as a sniper. I'm against war, mind you, I only believe in
territorial defensive war, in which case, I'd make it my business to pick off enemy officers

Could a telescope/camera MFD be implemented in the new Orbiter 2005? Then we can go spying over some hot
zones.

Well, the Mercury addons seems to have some sort of periscope (modelled after the real thing), so I guess the trick is
to use a special "panel" looking like a scope and temporarily decreasing the FOV.. plus some kind of zoom.. I guess
one way of doing it, would be to switch to external view (in a Target from.. mode) and zome it (away) to some
realistic zoom factor. The effect would be as if you're looking at the target from far away on board your own vessel
and it will also automatically track the target.. But all this using code..? Don't know if it can be done, but the concept
is here

BTW, seen the JAG episode "The One Who Got Away" where Harm gets to fly the Aurora recon plan over
the Korean DMZ - recon ain't always boring.

Nah.. I don't watch JAG.. being non-american it's too.. propagandish for my tastes no offense. On the other hand,
there is a sci-fi show I loved, even though it was totally pro-US and all that, but it had depth. It was called Space:
Above and Beyond. They one made one season and stop shooting it, because it was too "boring".. anyway, if you get
a chance grab it. It's not old, maybe 3-4 years ago. The deal is pretty standard.. Aliens, space marines able to find in
space, air, sea and land.. but the stories have a lot of historical background, mostly from WW2 pacific events..

Anyway, space combat may end up feeling like submarine warfare, and there's a good base for that, too.

Indeed. Passive scanners, stealth techniques, long range projectiles with own propulsion for correction burns and
hostile environment outside the vessel. You're right on.

Would it be possibile to have scripted sequences in Orbiter 2005? It could be useful to implement ASAT or SA missiles -
 guidance could use some code from Interplanetary MFD.

AFAIK, none. There are two options though, but with the onset of this release of Orbiter, Red Shift may have become
obsolete. Red Shift allows you to script the behaviour of a vessel quite precisely and the addon can control more than
one vessel at a time. Usually you use it, to have a vessel takeoff, go to orbit and dock to a station or something. But I
guess in a story script, Red Shift could act as "HQ" providing reinforcements, extractions.. Alternatively Red Shift could
also simulate enemy behaviour. Patrols, scheduled flights you need to disrupt or recon...

The other alternative is OrbiterSound sequential editor. I've done considerable testing with it, but the problem is, it
runs on time-triggers, not events. Except for docking. OS allows you to have a custom (un)docking sound for ANY
vessel. This may be useful for (de)briefings.. You launch, do something, dock at a station/vessel, get debriefed.
Undock, get briefed for the next assignment and after it dock to another vessel and get debriefed again and so on...
No scoring system, no success measurement.. Although I imagine a clever programer might even find a workaround
for that in the current SDK

Cheers,

[oli_chose123]

Ghostrider wrote:

Anyway, space combat may end up feeling like submarine warfare, and there's a good base for that, too.

this is for sure THE real future

but about the never ending target catching, it would not be really true. in the future, there will be a lot of space traffic,
and a ship going out of these limits could be lost, so battles would be near a planet,

it would not be a space shooter, still a simulator, because future battles will look like:

1) submarine battles, with torpedoes or missiles, stealth and other things

2)Babylon 5, its the only realistic sc fiction serie, if you saw the starfuries, (also at orbit hangar) they use real
physics, and are quite interesting.

but, ok, there will surely be no weapons in orbiter, and i cant do any games nor addons(the SDK wont help me, what programs
do i need?????????) but at least its fun to argue, lol

and about collisions and visible damages(done by collision [or weapons  !!!] would be cool, im bored of going through ISS
when a undock and i go full power(or i miss the dock)

and what about AI, will it never be possible??????

[Test pilot]

I think then it is a good idea to made possible the collision in orbiter.  Whit that, orbiter will be really more realistic
because we will not be able to pass trought the object like iss or bulding on the surface of earth or moon.

(once again, I am sorry for my bad english)

[Ghostrider]

heh, in a real war, eyesight permitting, I'd probably volunteer as a sniper. I'm against war, mind you, I only believe in
territorial defensive war, in which case, I'd make it my business to pick off enemy officers

You might start with your own officers: some are definitely more dangerous.
Me, I'd take reconnaissance again, been doing it with the Swiss Army for some time during the yearly refreshing
courses.

Well, the Mercury addons seems to have some sort of periscope (modelled after the real thing), so I guess the
trick is
to use a special "panel" looking like a scope and temporarily decreasing the FOV..

Flown the new Mercury yesterday and yeah, that's the concept! Takes some pretty pictures too.

The effect would be as if you're looking at the target from far away on board your own vessel
and it will also automatically track the target.. But all this using code..? Don't know if it can be done, but the concept
is here

An experiment I tried in the Antarctica Touchdown scenario was to overfly the crash area and see if I could spot the
Iguana. I used the Interplanetary MFD's Orbital/FIND command - closest thing to a targeting display ORBITER has - to
lock on it and changed the FOV settings to get a good look, pretending I was using binoculars! No joy, unfortunately.
I need a bigger zoom...

Nah.. I don't watch JAG.. being non-american it's too.. propagandish for my tastes no offense.

None taken - I'm not Bellisario.
Anyway, wish all propaganda would be like JAG. Far more fun than EuroNews.

On the other hand, there is a sci-fi show I loved, even though it was totally pro-US and all that, but it had
depth. It was called Space: Above and Beyond.

Watched it too! Shane was a hotter! I can just imagine Colonel McQueen's briefing in ORBITER: "Allright, guys. We're
going in on DGIIIs from the dark side. It's gonna be a real knife fight, so check your six. We'll use some aerobraking
and maybe a PRO200 program or two. And one more thing, if your nose heats up to 2000 °C on re-entry and the
autopilot goes offline, it's OK to be scared." Everybody else: "Hoo-ha!"

Another favourite of mine was "Earth 2".

Indeed. Passive scanners, stealth techniques, long range projectiles with own propulsion for correction burns
and
hostile environment outside the vessel. You're right on.

There was an "Aliens: Colonel Marines Tech Manual" which had a chapter on space combat techniques - pretty
realistic, you couldn't change vectors that easily, the advantage of low orbits vs high orbits, weapon envelopes and
so on. Basically, in a space battle the emphasis would be on finding the enemy, computing a solution and getting
steel on target before it could react. Given the damage inflicted by kinetic weaponry and the environment, it would be
basically a one-shot, one-kill affair.

Anyway, let's concentrate on recon: that could be done right now. Besides taking pictures of ground installation, one
cool thing would be to take pictures of a missile test - which is where a script would be useful. You get briefed about
the predicted launch time and you have to make into orbit so that your cameras can image the missile's flight. For
scoring, what about posting the pictures and see who's the best snoop?

[Ghostrider]

but about the never ending target catching, it would not be really true. in the future, there will be a lot of
space traffic, and a ship going out of these limits could be lost, so battles would be near a planet.

Of course, there's nohing in space worth fighting about. And if you were, for instance, to go from Earth to Jupiter and
the enemy is coming down from Jupiter to Earth you couldn't change your trajectory to intercept it, you'd probably be
VERY long away. That if your radar had enough range to nail it down. Better leave it to planetary defences.

but, ok, there will surely be no weapons in orbiter

There ARE weapons in Orbiter - the Minuteman II missile, the Soyuz PPK's rockets, the Deltafighter's laser, the Ezekiel
orbital cannon... Ok, they're only to show off but there is a fully functional weapon out there: the Orion drive. Point
your ship's engine towards anyone you don't like and throttle up. The nuke will either set their fuel to zero and
negate their capability to manoeuver or set their altitude to zero and make their craft tumble without control. So,
there is a functional "warhead" code around.

and what about AI, will it never be possible??????

We've pretty much given up on natural intelligence.

[StarLost]

But really guys.  Most people who want Orbiter to be a space shooter are just partaking of a military fantasy.  Think about
what it would take to actually fight a war on a system-wide scale, with accurate physics and orbital mechanics.  I think the
closest anyone has gotten to it yet, literary-wise is Larry Niven's Man/Kzin Wars series.

Time factors are long.  Intercept for rendezvous can take months.  For most of you who want the shooter, you would find the
actuality very boring, much like actual military life (some moments of utter excitement and terror and in between, months of
inaction, drudgery and practice). There is a reason why there is a certain truism in every military on the planet: "Hurry up,
and wait."

It all sounds exciting, especially when you're young and unsophisticated. It's kind of like chasing pretty girls. Fun when
you're young and don't know any better. Give it time, and its generally not worth the bother.

[Ghostrider]

StarLost wrote:
It all sounds exciting, especially when you're young and unsophisticated. It's kind of like chasing pretty girls. Fun when
you're young and don't know any better. Give it time, and its generally not worth the bother.

Especially since as you get older, chasing pretty girls can get you arrested.

Anyway, I don't think anyone's expecting Star Wars-type dogfighting in Orbiter: many of us are interested in the
challenges involved in orbital interception, not carrying out the actual interception.

For instance, how would we approach a scenario where you have an inbound enemy on a parabolic orbit (very high
speed), you know it's heading for landfall and you have to intercept it from Moon orbit with a long-range missile?
Kinda like the old show, UFO. Ideally you would take off from the Moon, get into an orbit aligned with the inbound's
plane, then fire off a missile on a transfert trajectory that would get it near enough to the target that its warhead
could damage it. It's nothing that can't be done right now - and of course it would be most un-exciting: just get into
orbit, align, fire when the computer tells you to... But then we get a kick out of docking to the ISS, why not?

You're right on about military life: I was asked once how one could replicate the realities of military life with a tac
shooter like, say, Raven Shield (I appear to like that one). I said: "Set your computer to wake you up between 1am
and 5am. Keep the windows open so it will be cold. Sleep on the floor. When it wakes you up, go and have a scenario
loaded that puts you out on some forsaken hill. Stay there for, say, 3 hours. Nothing happens. Go sleep again. That's
it."

[Travis Reed]

Ghostrider wrote:
Another favourite of mine was "Earth 2".

I REMEMBER THAT!
Where'd that one go I wonder...

[Ghostrider]

Travis Reed wrote:

Ghostrider wrote:
Another favourite of mine was "Earth 2".

I REMEMBER THAT!
Where'd that one go I wonder...

Cancelled after one season (22 episodes). Damn them all to Hell!

[Travis Reed]

*agrees vehemently*
That was a good series. It had promise. *shakes fist in the general direction of network execs*

[Me]

I think in orbiter it would be nice to have collisions and atmoshperic damege so if you crashed on a planet your ship
would breakup or disentigrate in the atmosphere or if you over heat your engines your ship blows itself into bits or it
could implode if yopu loose pressure in space by not operating your airlock properly, that would be nice

[freespace2dotcom]

And I think jump nodes to other stars would be nice, too.

And while we're at it, we can add weapons that can blow planets into itty bitty rocks that would realistically follow
tragectories that put them in orbit as an asteroid belt between venus and mars!



Post Edited ( 01-20-05 22:52 )