[Off-topic] Remembrance and Dangerous Opinions

[DocHoliday]

Real dip, yeah. Couldn't help it... I get quite depressed when I think of these things and the fact is Orbiter community
really makes it all seem worthwhile..

Heh, well, history is written by the victorious, however, since this planet still exists and we are more or less quite well
off, I'd have to say, so far the good guys have won.. with occasional delays and the like.

I doubt we could change the atmosphere that fast, but it's good to dream Resistance to change is a force to be
reckoned with.

[reekchaa]

Let's hear it for the end of fake fear.
Took my daughter off to her second day of 1st grade, in liberal hollywood no doubt, and was surprised to watch her
having to take part in a HUGE military-style 'remembrance' program with the principal terrifying the kids about the
thousands of burning bodies falling from our greatest of american buildings.  Turns into a frikkin' pro-war rally, really,
with only my homer simpson 'kiss my ass' shirt to disorient the barrage of confused red white & blue freaks.
  C'mon, boys & girls... hasn't the Lord of the Rings taught us anything?  

[reekchaa]

To add to your list of Great Movies, Doc, "Steal this Movie" ...to learn more about the Vietnam war, and how
Abbie Hoffman stopped it.

[DocHoliday]

Hm, not familiar with that one, will try to find it some place

I can imagine that particular event you described. The really sad part is, if you were to say something along the
lines:"Come on chill out, it's not that bad, we just need to get our boys back and take care of our own business
before we try to improve the world again."

or even "It's logical people fear america and want to harm us, but that doesn't mean we should squash everyone
just because of that. It will just give them justification"...

You would be linched as enemy of the state on the spot! That's the sad part....

Cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

Ah, yes. I saw that movie.

I can't say I liked it, but I found it was very interesting.

I'm just not into movies any more..

[reekchaa]

My money's currently riding on 'TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE'  -(by the creators of South Park)
with quotes like "We put the 'F' back in Freedom!"  
After seeing how they ripped Mel Gibson a new one about his 'snuff film', I'm ready to buy tickets for the clergy.

The last defence to growing Facism seems to be well disguised, spoofed social commentary.

http://teamamerica.com/
http://www.drudgereport.com/ta.htm

[DocHoliday]

Hehe, sounds like an interesting piece. I must say, I detested South Park before I knew more about their authors I
didn't know it was a form of rebellion, I just thought it was another one of those unintelligent kind of cartoons I'm
used to seeing on Cartoon Channel

The problem with this sort of defence is, obviously, that few people actually understand it and read between the lines
properly. You'd have to spell it out to the average person

Cheers,

[Mr Lightyear]

One view could be that the US hankers after an out moded concept, one that has already been proven to fail over
time; The British Empire and Commonwealth.  One only has to look at the Hearts and Minds doctrine of the early 50's
(Korea) and the 60's and 70's (Vietnam) and all the other little skirmishes around the globe, hell even President, er
sorry thats his wishful thinking, Prime Minister T. B-Liar is torn between signing up to be the 53rd State of the USA or
to continue with his magnificent (He does like to admit that Edward Heath *Spits that name out with all hells hatred*
actually signed the UK's life away to the EU) plans to go into Europe and forego the Pound, strip the Monarchy (Oh
Oh!  Theres another debate!), well even if he succeeds the US would buy em...  I better stop ranting, my BP is up and
about to burst a blood vessel...

Usual Disclaimer about my opinions not being those of anyone else blah, blah, blah...

[DocHoliday]

Yeah, well, I prefer not to go into more in depth discussion about it. It is a public forum and it will create a flame war,
if there are ppl who will have totally opposite views

But I agree in one thing. Agressive stances work when actual defense of a nation is at hand. But this "extended"
or "projected" or "preemptive" defense, which I believe has its roots in the Monroe Doctrine, creates more trouble
than it solves..

International problems can only be properly solved with dialogue and TERRORIST problems can only be solved by
making some kind of concession (and yes, America makes it a point not to do that, which is part of the problem,
because it is considered arrogant and uncooperative by terrorists-to-be). Because terrorists would not exist if they
didn't have a serious problem with something. The way they are defined in today's world, a better term for them
would be hooligans. And I do NOT believe that a person would commit a suicide bombing as a hooliganism act.. Nor
do I believe they would do it without a good reason, worthy cause or whatever. Whether the reasons are misguided
or not  is another, but quite important matter. Any kind of misguided opinion though is a result of ingorance.. Not
knowing another culture and believing sterotypes, warmongers opinions and such.... and we are all guilty of that to
some extent and t all just adds up to the crazyness we see today. Both with the "good" and the "bad" types.. Really
makes it a perfect background for various conspiracy theories to get executed. If people were not so afraid and lost it
would be a lot harder to push forward such.. unpopular acts to say the least.

I must admit, I got the feeling world is going back to the mentality of Cold War era immediatelly after Bush started
using terms like nuclear umbrella, WMD and various Axis references. This IS history and the world WOULD move
forward had such concepts not been revived..

On the other hand Muslim and Oriental culture IS vastly different from Western. So direct comparisons, "logical"
reactions and "common sense" expectations do not apply. You cannot expect a person who grew up in a society
where women are mistreated institutionally, to support someone foreign saying they should be not. At least not on a
mass level. You cannot on the other hand expect another person raised in a individualistic society to accept things
like group responsability and making sacrifices so weaker will not perish.. So you shouldn't even try to expect it and
keep your hands away from people who are thus different. People must change on their own. No outside intervention
can ever do this fully......

An example: I will accept that people should receive gov't support if they are not able to work. The support is derived
through taxes of the working people, but is should be enough for them to live, so they are motivated to prosper still.
The average American would probably not accept it and say they should work it off later or not receive it at all even if
it means they are going to perish. Then again I will NOT accept to have my child set to Christianity by default after it
is born, nor to have religious references in the country's allegience. To the average American that is total nonsense
and totally irrelevant, since most ARE brought up as Christians...

Democracy in Iraq will NOT work, just as it is struggling in Russia. It is wishful thinking, based on the assumption
those people think the same as us. It is struggling in MY country even though we are much more individualistic than
Russia we DID elect to end the socialist system but we did have it for 50 years and it shows...  with my parents, even
with me. Certain things I got used to, and certain things are hard to change and accept. Even my kids won't totally
adjust.

So why change them or let them change me.. Makes perfect sense if you understand the background.

Cheers,

[DocHoliday]

****, that came out way larger than I wanted.. sorry

[Mr Lightyear]

I think you sealed the topic right there Doc...  Nice post, makes me quite ashamed for my previous outburst
LOL!

[UAF_Lt_Brenton]

Personally I think that the US govt did 9-11 themselves to give Bush an excuse to go to war with Iraq. (Yes, I will
blank this post if it offends anyone)

[DocHoliday]

Bold statement. I happen to agree with you, as incredible as it seems, it makes perfect sense. I just HOPE you and I
are dead wrong, becuase otherwise we are all in deep doo-doo.

(Yes, I will blank this post if it offends anyone)

You did use the magic words "Personally I think", which makes your statement a personal thought on the matter to
which you are entitled.

Besides Freespace did us all a favour by dedicating this thread to Dangerous Opinions, so it may be ignored if
deemed offensive

[freespace2dotcom]

Personally I think that the US govt did 9-11 themselves to give Bush an excuse to go to war with Iraq.
(Yes, I will blank this post if it offends anyone)

Bold statement. I happen to agree with you, as incredible as it seems, it makes perfect sense. I just HOPE you and I
are dead wrong, becuase otherwise we are all in deep doo-doo.

Very bold statement, I happen to agree with you both. I do hope for the best, (that they didn't do it) but I expect
the worst.. But personally, I feel it was more for creating an american police state.

That team america movie seems very eerie. I must get a copy!

And hooligan is just a wrong word, doc. A hooligan is, by freespacian definition, a person that is a mischief maker, up
to no good, but not really in a violent and\or malevolent way. Or maybe I need to get my face out of the webster's
and get an ENGLISH English dictionary. (pun intended)

One view could be that the US hankers after an out moded concept, one that has already been proven to fail
over time; The British Empire and Commonwealth.

I myself had thought about that. What was the saying again? "The sun never sets on the British Empire"?

that was made because britain had territories/bases/etc. all over the world, As america does now. Eventually, I think
america will face a big decline similar to what has already happened.

As for the UK remaining a monarchy, I would personally prefer it to remain that way. firstly, a big part of the culture
and tradition of the world will have ended. I would compare it to Japan and it's "americanization" that it experienced
after ww2. they lost a lot of things that made them unique, and things like geisha and whatnot have been reduced
signifigantly.  Even then, THEY still have their emperor. (which I can very much respect.)

secondly, monarchies in the world have never died because of evil dictators. if you had one like that, then the people
revolt. but the monarch was replaced, not the monarchy. It was only until the "popular" governments appeared that
they started really disappearing. But I will say. I'd rather live in a monarchy where the ruler was just, than in today's
version of a democracy.

I don't really think the people have any power anyway, so I'd rather not live in the illusion of it. at least then we know
who to hang if things go sour.

thidly, what is there to benefit from removing it? Metric at least, has merit. Even if I'll never get rid of my yardstick
through stubborness, I can not see how getting rid of a monarchy (that almost doesn't even have any power to my
eyes anyway) will help. If they think it's inefficient having a few people sit on their butts, I can show them real
inefficiency. just look at our democracy for starters. they don't seem do anything nowadays anyway. When
the "patriot" act came along, the just rubber stamped it because of the name. I think that only a handful of them
actually read it. it's all "president this", and "president that" nowadys. I don't know who my state's congresspeople
are. I don't even know when the elections for that are. I'm willing to bet that a large majority of people couldn't
answer that either. If you ask me, we're almost reverting back to giving the power back to one individual again. the
only problem is we don't see that. we don't see the web, and we will not see the dictatorship that ensues until it's
too late, and when we do see it, we won't know who to blame, nor what to do about it.

<this is my opinion only> disclaimer.



Post Edited ( 09-15-04 18:08 )

[DocHoliday]

Another dangerous opinion. Or rather idea. I don't believe either but still..

The hurricanes in Florida. Officially I believe the reasons for their frequency are due to climatic changes which are an
offshot result of polution. BUT what if:

a. they may be punishment of God to America for taking the rule of .. say God into their own hands. Florida being the
perfect target as it is the usual target in the hurricanes path, moreover because it was the battlefield of the last
election and the populace needs to be reminded to make a more decisive effort this time.... (this is an idea, I wish no
harm to anyone, nor do I believe this)

b. I have heard ideas that the storms may be a direct result of human manipulation. Weather control so to speak.
Only it is not for the benefit of the people but another way to terrorize civilian population. Again in this case Florida..

As I said, I do believe they are the annual result of normal Coriolis force at work, added by polution which changes
the daily business of things... nor do any of these ideas stand well against the argument of why have also the people
of Haiti, Jamaica, Cuba and more to the point and by other stroms, Japan, China,  India, Indonesia with many of it's
countries etc... suffering for the deeds of one country. One might say this is overwhelming proof that it's just nature
at work, another might say: mysterious are the paths of God.

Lemme see what you think...

Cheers,