[Off-topic] Remembrance and Dangerous Opinions

[freespace2dotcom]

Normally, I'm not a sentimental guy, but I figure why not?

It's september 11th again, and so in remembrace of all those who died 3 years ago, may their true killers be brought
to justice, whomever they may be. (And remember that I'm a conspiracy nut, so I do believe that anything is
possible...)

God, 3 years already? and another election is due? I'm getting too old....

Anyway, here's hoping that no more constitution-breaking "patriot" acts get passed through legisation... and that the
US doesn't conquer any more nations, for that matter....

I tell ya,  I almost wish I lived under a rock. then I wouldn't have to put up with constant electorial nonsense.

Both bush and kerry are taking more interest in people my age right now than others at previous elections.., and my
school is full of those trying to grab votes for them. I almost wish I had something to defend myself... maybe a
good 'ol yardstick'll do...

Take it easy, everyone. I'm half-expecting Bush to say something nationalistic today to get votes, and that'll only tick
everyone else in the world off. Just ignore him.

feel free to go to www.ramifications.8k.com and show me your stances.. If you impress me with an overwhelming
result for one person, you might just get me to get up off my lazy rear and vote for real. (no promises, but it's likely.)

Even if I personally feel that both are scumbags, you guys can influence me. So you can make a difference, if even a
small non-existant one at that. I'd much rather listen to the opinions of others' than the ones of those who want
mine. far less biased that way.

[Atom]

I think American democracy has kind of failed.

Yes it has stopped self appointed dictators, but the voting system doesn't seem to be doing America any good at the moment
either.

For example the unjustified war on Iraq. They had no proof of any biological weapons from the beginning, whatever the reason
for attacking Iraq was, the American government isn't going to share it with anyone. That war was, and still is a waste of
money and lives.

I am in no way blaming the people of America for this. They don't really have much of a choice. If I was an American at
voting age, I wouldn't vote. The choice between Bush and Kerry, it just isn't fair to have two slime balls running for president.

The attack on the twin towers was unfortunate, and a terrible loss of life. I'm still surprised that Britian hasn't been hit
yet, it's been expected since the twin towers.

No insult intended, let's not let this turn ugly.

[freespace2dotcom]

Indeed, I agree entirely. I really think that kerry isn't much better than bush, and is playing on the fact that bush
sucks so badly, that he coudln't be any worse. And indeed, he might very well be marginally better.

But I really have no intention of voting myself.  I figured that if you guys felt the way Doc has in his emails to me, I
might very well consider it. Thankfully, atom seems very likeminded to me in this. Honestly, though, what's stopping
a person like bush from refusing to step down and claiming himself dictator? very little nowadays..

I do agree that the WTC was a sad event, but that's not a reason to brashly go on some crusade against innocent
people, which will only increase the hatred and likelyness that we will experience even more attacks.

Maybe I would run for president and stop the madness.. If only it wasn't a millionaires-only club..

[Mr Lightyear]

May those Victims of the 9/11 find solace in the arms of Angels.

Not to take anything away from the Sept 11th attrocity but I look forward to the day when the Brits are allowed to be
patriotic and remember all those lost to all the Christmas Bombing Campaigns, the Canary Wharf bombings, the
shootings, the "ritual" tar and featherings, the Coke can bombs, the Hyde park bombing, Eirey Neive (Sp)
assasination, Lord Louie Mountbatten assasination, the Brighton bombings, the Enniskillen bombing etc etc etc to
name but a few, one day, just one day we might be able to stand proud and remember publicly just as our American
cousins keep the remembrance of Sept 11th alive, and so they should.  

I realise this maybe a rather pointed post and I will understand if the Forum owner see's fit to remove but I feel what
I have written is justified.

May those responsible for any act of terrorism, no matter where, when or who recieve their just deserves.  They will
all rest in eternal torment, charred by the fires of hell.

Geez, now I sound like a Sunday Preacher and I am not even religious! Can I say Jehovah here or will I be stoned?


My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of any other party, organisation or individual.



Post Edited ( 09-11-04 19:58 )

[freespace2dotcom]

Lightyear, Dan has just sat back and watched us ruin his forum with arguments on politics, conspiracies, and even
standards of measurement.

I think he'll let us all talk about and remember those who were lost through various yet similar ways.

I didn't lose anybody close to me  three years ago today, and furthermore, I'm not a bit patriotic in the "modern"
sense. Even so, It was sad, and I do feel for those who weren't as lucky.

however sad the event was, I can't help but compare it with the spanish-american war.

"remember the maine" they said. And it was later proven that spain had nothing to do with it.

That's another case of "terrorism" to goad the people into a war...

[DanSteph]

freespace2dotcom wrote:
"remember the maine" they said. And it was later proven that spain had nothing to do with it.
That's another case of "terrorism" to goad the people into a war...

I Stand on your right side about this. Your plain right.

I feel personnaly like an insult for all the victims of 911 when they are
used as an emotionnal argu to justify more innocent death.
It as been proven that in the modern war 90% death are civilians like you, me
and as where the peoples in the twin.
When I see most forum where peoples justify the killing of innocent by 911
I just think how wonderful the propaganda still work.

For me religion and patriotism just lead for death and destruction.
One can love his country, love the place where it leave but one must remain
VERY careffuly, when the flags rise and people start singing patriotic song
and speak about US and THEM it's often the time to sit back and wonder if all
this is right.

But it seem that 100 millions people lost in two war was in vain, we learned nothing
from them.

One can't change peoples uh ?

About the forum, keep it fair please. Any attempt of racism, basic country bashing or anything like
that will be shot on sight.
 
Dan

[Mr Lightyear]

Thanks Freespace2dotcom, Dan et al.  I just really needed to get that of fmy chest.  The last few years I have sat and
watched terrorism explode in a big way aroudn the globe and there are a few countries that to be honest all this is
nothing new, it has almost become a way of life.  Very sad indeed...  

Many thanks Dan for lallowing us to have a voice.

Heres to you my friend!

[schumanna]

DanSteph wrote:
About the forum, keep it fair please. Any attempt of racism, basic country bashing or anything like
that will be shot on sight.
 
Dan

Yup I agree.  I have to agree with everyone too.

freespace2dotcom wrote:
I tell ya, I almost wish I lived under a rock

Take it easy, everyone. I'm half-expecting Bush to say something nationalistic today to get votes, and that'll only tick
everyone else in the world off.  Just ignore him.

I would very much like that if I dont already.

freespace2dotcom wrote:
Take it easy, everyone. I'm half-expecting Bush to say something nationalistic today to get votes, and that'll only tick
everyone else in the world off.  Just ignore him.

hummm...... yup



Post Edited ( 09-11-04 20:21 )

[freespace2dotcom]

DanSteph wrote:
About the forum, keep it fair please. Any attempt of racism, basic country bashing or anything like
that will be shot on sight.
Dan

Can one bash his own country? I'm sorely tempted to.

Seriously, though. People have changed, in that they would never fall for the propoganda of the early 1900's. It's just
that the propoganda has changed, too. so we're still in the same position.  One should never assume that there is
some evil, vague "enemy" that needs to be defeated.

I hate to say it, but america IS wrong. It has simply been snooping around too much in other's business. I
would say that many people have been wronged by america, and they have no way to make themselves heard but
through violence. Bush has done a great job of letting the people forget that one person's terrorist is another's
freedom fighter. It's all on the persective.

I don't condone violence, but I do think that some people have nothing left to lose, so they try to make others lose
too. In other words, all's fair in love and war. And I would tend to sympathize with people in that. War is the answer
to very few things. And because I am against this "God-blessed war on terror" I am suddenly unpatriotic and
want another event like 9-11 to happen, but that couldn't be farther from the truth.

but we can't change people, eh?

[Atom]

This 'war on terrorism' is like declaring war on a religion. You can destroy a physical force with an army, but not an
idealism. You can destroy one cell, another one will replace it, you can destroy one camp, another will appear. It is
impossible to win. Like an extreme Vietnam.

[reekchaa]

Fear is a horribly powerful tool.  

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

[Arkalius]

I like Bush. He's not perfect or anything of course, and he's not the best president this country has had, but I think in
some ways he's better than Clinton and certainly much better than Kerry.

As far as the war in Iraq goes, I think it has been a good thing. We have liberated that country from the clutches of a
maniacal dictator. Civilians died, yes, but we avoided it as much as possible, and it's a fact of war that non-
combatants will lose their lives. How many more would have lost their lives if Saddam was still in power over there?
And they ask where the weapons of mass destruction are... let's ask Iraq's neighbors about that. Saddam knew that
if we were going to come in fighting, we were going to be looking for these WMDs. I suspect that he had them moved out as quickly as possible because he knew it would cause political ramifications for us if we found nothing. Either way, the lack of WMD's found in Iraq was not Bush's fault. That country was a mess before and we are doing great things over there. It's easy to be distracted by all the news of casualties and terrorists over there doing this or that. We don't see the news reports of how our people, military and civilian alike, are over there building a new infrastructure for this country, and helping these people live better lives than they ever hoped to achieve under the rule of Saddam. It is saddening to know that over 1000 American combatants (and some number of servicemen from our allies' countries) have died over there, but they died for a worthy cause. Part of me wishes I could be over there with them to help.

If Kerry were president, a lunatic dictator would still be in control over there, squandering that country's money and
murdering its people. People accuse America of being imperialistic or some nonsense. We are over there not to take
control of the country but to give the people back control over it.


I think Democratic (!) senator Zell Miller said it best in his speech, so I will leave you with this excerpt:

"Motivated more by partisan politics than by national security, today's Democratic leaders see America as an occupier,
not a liberator.

And nothing makes this Marine madder than someone calling American troops occupiers rather than liberators.

Tell that to the one-half of Europe that was freed because Franklin Roosevelt led an army of liberators, not occupiers.

Tell that to the lower half of the Korean Peninsula that is free because Dwight Eisenhower commanded an army of
liberators, not occupiers.

Tell that to the half a billion men, women and children who are free today from the Baltics to the Crimea, from Poland
to Siberia, because Ronald Reagan (news - web sites) rebuilt a military of liberators, not occupiers.

Never in the history of the world has any soldier sacrificed more for the freedom and liberty of total strangers than
the American soldier. And, our soldiers don't just give freedom abroad, they preserve it for us here at home.

For it has been said so truthfully that it is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It
is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the agitator, who has given us the freedom to protest.

It is the soldier who salutes the flag, serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who gives that
protester the freedom to abuse and burn that flag.

No one should dare to even think about being the Commander in Chief of this country if he doesn't believe with all his
heart that our soldiers are liberators abroad and defenders of freedom at home.

...

Twenty years of votes can tell you much more about a man than twenty weeks of campaign rhetoric.

Campaign talk tells people who you want them to think you are. How you vote tells people who you really are deep
inside.

Senator Kerry has made it clear that he would use military force only if approved by the United Nations (news - web
sites).

Kerry would let Paris decide when America needs defending.

I want Bush to decide.

John Kerry, who says he doesn't like outsourcing, wants to outsource our national security.

That's the most dangerous outsourcing of all. This politician wants to be leader of the free world.

Free for how long?

For more than 20 years, on every one of the great issues of freedom and security, John Kerry has been more wrong,
more weak and more wobbly than any other national figure.

As a war protester, Kerry blamed our military.

As a Senator, he voted to weaken our military. And nothing shows that more sadly and more clearly than his vote this
year to deny protective armor for our troops in harms way, far away.

George Bush understands that we need new strategies to meet new threats.

John Kerry wants to re-fight yesterday's war. George Bush believes we have to fight today's war and be ready for
tomorrow's challenges. George Bush is committed to providing the kind of forces it takes to root out terrorists.

No matter what spider hole they may hide in or what rock they crawl under.

George Bush wants to grab terrorists by the throat and not let them go to get a better grip.

From John Kerry, they get a "yes-no-maybe" bowl of mush that can only encourage our enemies and confuse our
friends.

I first got to know George Bush when we served as governors together. I admire this man. I am moved by the
respect he shows the first lady, his unabashed love for his parents and his daughters, and the fact that he is
unashamed of his belief that God is not indifferent to America.

I can identify with someone who has lived that line in "Amazing Grace," "Was blind, but now I see," and I like the fact
that he's the same man on Saturday night that he is on Sunday morning.

He is not a slick talker but he is a straight shooter and, where I come from, deeds mean a lot more than words.

I have knocked on the door of this man's soul and found someone home, a God-fearing man with a good heart and a
spine of tempered steel.

The man I trust to protect my most precious possession: my family.

This election will change forever the course of history, and that's not any history. It's our family's history.

The only question is how. The answer lies with each of us. And, like many generations before us, we've got some
hard choosing to do.

Right now the world just cannot afford an indecisive America. Fainthearted self-indulgence will put at risk all we care
about in this world.

In this hour of danger our President has had the courage to stand up. And this Democrat is proud to stand up with
him.

Thank you.

God Bless this great country and God Bless George W. Bush. "



Post Edited ( 09-12-04 02:41 )

[DanSteph]

See freespace why I didn't want to speak about politic ? because I'm enough ethical to let
speak every opinion, even the one I don't like, once started I can't stop without being
unfair (of course as long as it's not racism, unpolite or personnal attack).

Well let start some quotes because one can't reply to the previous simply, one must argu again
and again, study history , read books etc etc.
And the main reason: it's because I'm too busy to argu.

somes quotes:

"Naturally, the common people don't  want war;
neither in Russia nor in England nor in America,
nor for that matter in Germany.
That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders
of the country who determine the policy and
it is always a simple matter to drag the people
along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist
dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing
the country to danger. It works the same way
in any country."

           - Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarshall

This is 60 years old... still right on the money.

And two that are essential:

Those who do not learn from history are
doomed to repeat it.  --George Santayana

Unthinking respect for authority is the
greatest enemy of truth. --Albert Einstein

God might bless eventually all the innocents victim that are made
in the name of god, freedom and country - EVERY VICTIMS - not only "ours"

But I don't believe in god.

Dan



Post Edited ( 09-12-04 03:06 )

[freespace2dotcom]

Hehe.. People are free to their opinions.

I think that bush has done some genuine good, and doesn't appear to be maniacal red button-pressing guy.

And I'll also say that bush does have some positive points over kerry, but I really feel that the election will be more of
a coin toss than anything serious. much like the close, indecisive one we had last time.

I've always felt that people should be free to express their opinions, whatever they are. I can respect those
who are in disagreement with me. It's my "job" to let the people in disagrement with me see my side.

Politics should be peaceful debates, but some people went too far in both directions, and now we have political
correctness to the point where if you don't tie your shoelaces in a certain manner, you risk offending people.

That's why I don't tie my shoes half the time.

If you think that I like kerry though, Arkalius, you're mistaken. I like neither. And I've decided that I want someone
beyond democrats and republicans. sadly, independants don't tend to do so well...

[Arkalius]

If it was worthwhile, I'd vote for a third party too. As it is though, we only have 2 people to choose from. It's gone
from voting for someone to voting against someone. It's not who you like the most, but who you hate the least... or
rather who has the best chance of defeating who you hate the most.

In the debate between voting your concscience and voting for the lesser of two evils, one person made an
interesting piont to me once. In many states, the person who will win the electoral vote is already known. I live in CA,
and it's pretty much a given that Kerry will win here. If you live in a state where you know who's going to win there
already, then why not just vote your conscience? It will help get the percentage up, and the higher it gets, the more
attention these third parties will gain. If you live in a battleground state however, it depends on what you feel you
should do. Your vote will definitely count. A vote for a third party is essentially thrown away there as far as
determining who will become the president.

[freespace2dotcom]

It's not who you like the most, but who you hate the least... or
rather who has the best chance of defeating who you hate the most.

I couldn't have said it better!

But as I made the case to docholiday over email, I feel that if you're on a farm and need food, you're not going to
want to plant seeds that don't bear fruit.

you want corn, or wheat, or something, not flowers.

Rather than try and plant flowers and hope that they produce something edible, I'd rather not waste the effort in
planting them. That's what my conscience says.

I live in IL. I don't even know what my state's stance is. that just shows how much I've been caring about the whole
thing.

but I fully agree that a third party's chances are beyond slim, but I would be willing to bet that if we got a genuine
worthy guy running for president in a third party, (someone like me. *eh hehe*) especially in the current atmosphere
where you'd vote for the one you hate less. I see no way how the two main parties would be able to compare with
that third person if they had nominated people like bush and kerry.

But sadly, all the third party runners for president I've seen in my life haven't really impressed me, either..

[Hispaorbiter]

A little point: Do you know what was the last country Spain was in war against? Yes! USA

"remember the Maine"...

[DanSteph]

freespace2dotcom wrote:
But sadly, all the third party runners for president I've seen in my life haven't really impressed me, either..

Sames wood, same ****.

They are choosed in a very litle fraction of the population that have already money and power.
Others have no chance to get there.

So for the democracy.

Dan

[Arkalius]

I don't think America's forefathers ever expected or intended politics to have such a high financial requirement to it,
but these days you need to advertise yourself and to do that you need money. You have to remember being rich in
the first place isn't all it takes, you also have to get the contributions from other people. We're in a position where
people almost have to buy elections. It's not exactly that way yet, but it's going that way.

Winston Churchill said it best I think: "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that
have been tried."

Democracy, at least as it exists in the US, is a government designed to protect people from themselves. It basically
says that it's a given that we'll screw ourselves over otherwise so we have to make everything so complicated and
convoluted so that takes a very long time. And we are screwing ourselves over too. It's a very slow process, but it's
happening.

One of our forefathers once said "From time to time, the tree of liberty needs to be refreshed with the blood of
patriots and tyrants." I just hope I won't have to live to see the day where that will happen on our own soil.

[freespace2dotcom]

heh. America has had freedom for so long, that I think that we have forgotten the price required to maintain it.

Here's some new sound wave tech that the Gov't used against some demonstrators not too long ago. supposedly
nonlethal, but a taser is supposed to be too, and all you have to do is turn up the amps to fry a guy alive...



"sound waves to cause discomfort"!?

sounds very creepy to me. Almost 1984'ish in the way they wish to control the people.... I've more or less given up on
the system after things like this. But that seems to be the trend, no matter who you vote for.

I fully expect to see the day when the people will have to fight for freedom once again, but I doubt that it will be
possible, considering the gov't has toys like this, and "enlightened societies don't need guns", or so the feds say...

and nobody will have guns when the tyrants come. because we agreed to it.

I'm a very depressing individual. Pay no attention to me if you think it's impossible, (especially you, simon! ) but
ultimately, that's what I feel. I hope I'm wrong, But I expect the worst.

[Mr Lightyear]

I think kenny Everett used to have it bang on... "Round em, put em in a field and BOMB THE B******S!"

[Atom]

Well actually, seeing as none of us can see into the future. Who knows? Things might just calm down. (Probably not, I'm just
being optimistic ).

[DocHoliday]

Hello all,

been off for a few days and didn't get a chance to read everything everyone has said, but as expected politics is a
hot topic. I'm not going to go into it. My opinion is pretty obvious and I agree with most of you, if not, I will respect
your opinion.

But since this thread was opened to also Remember and Honor the victims of (whoever) was responsible for crashing
two commercial jets into a civilian building (to just limit myself to WTC part of it) I will appreciate and value all the
human lives lost (both then, before and after, both US and non-US) in a moment of silence...

..


Also I put it to you, to watch Fahrenheit 9/11 and Bowling for Colombine. Watch them not with criticism, but with an
open mind. See that fear is useless and fear of eachother even more so. People who fear one another are only useful
to two kinds of groups... Political elites and terrorists. History will decide who was right and wrong.

So don't fear and don't believe all you see in the news. Take this forum as an example of an international community
not based on fear, ignorance and hatred.. but instead on curiousity, skill and respect.

There is hope and people who die both on the side of good or evil are the casualties that are needed for us to learn
this lesson. In a way they die for all of us and give us a new chance to try a different approach, because conflicts and
war never have winners.. Only casualties.

May they R.I.P.



Post Edited ( 09-13-04 09:12 )

[Atom]

Deep Doc, real deep.

[freespace2dotcom]

Real deep indeed.

So don't fear and don't believe all you see in the news. Take this forum as an example of an international
community
not based on fear, ignorance and hatred.. but instead on curiousity, skill and respect.

what about co-operation?

seriously though, I agree nearly entirely, doc, but I will say that although history decides who is right and wrong, who
writes the history books, hmmm?

Other than that, though. I too, shall hope that people will actually learn from the lessons of the past and present.

we've come a long way from ww2. We don't need a ww3.  maybe we at this forum here should start ruling our
respective countries.

I would like to believe that we could remove the current political atmosphere overnight.