xplane - another flight simultator. check it

[Pierre_le]

xplane is an advanced atmospheric  flight simulator. it look like microsofts one, but it's more powerfull.
graphics are beautiful and the sim engine is highly optimized. the main feature of xplane is to provide a real
aerodynamic flight model, that handle aircraft's shapes,cx and behavior.
no orbit,space or interplanetary trips, but a shuttle atm reentry scenario is possible

this sim is not freeware , but demo is freely avalaible with this torrent link (official torrent)
http://bt.markal.net/bt/torrents/XWIN750.exe.torrent
the joystick will be disabled after 5min, but you can use AP to continue flying. mars atmospheric flight is also avalaible.

lot of additional planes and scenery are avalaible througt
http://www.xplanefreeware.net/
http://www.chromatix.uklinux.net/scenery/

official
http://www.x-plane.com

you will see lot of similitudes with orbiter too. it is good for 747 travel or cesna leisurely. sure i'll still prefer orbiter.
free
and tremendous

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre!

Great tips, I've been flying X-Plane for over 3 years, it's (with Fly!2) the best flight simulator I've ever seen!
You can also have more information (In French!) at http://www.xp-fc.org and http://www.xpgoodwayteam.org
See also http://www.cvfxp.org for a great french VA for X-Plane!
Enjoy!

Pierre, LFPG, STV1010

[reekchaa]

* Pierre_le gets message from Pierre, that says 'Hi Pierre!' *
Hmm.. there's a whole lotta suspicious X-Plane lovin' goin on around here.  

Fortunately, I agree.  X-Plane's the Bees knees.  It's the read deal.  It's one-man's development morphine.  Plus,
Austin Meyer makes lots of money from it, and owns Big Toys, cars & planes from his blood, sweat & inspiration.  
...Which makes me feel quite bad for Poor Dan.
Dan's stuff is MUCH better, IMHO... and This is where I think Freeware really fails.  If Dan could develop his creation
full-time, able to buy planes and more boats and corvettes and houses and skyscrapers, we'd have a much happier
Dan.  (And a deluxe DG9 by now).   Austin has tons of people bitching on the www.x-plane.org forum about how
crappy his development is, bugs entroduced with each new release, with really no personal support or manuals.  Still,
Austin's rolling in commercial dough... solo... unwilling to be bought-out.  He's competing with M$ for chrissake!

Orbiter's MUCH more professional.  Commercially viable, I think, too.  I wish I could convince Dr. Martin to release
a 'commercial' version of Orbiter at some point... giving everyone the ability to devote a lot more time in their work as
a career, and not just a hobby.  Commercial software just pilfers (steals) Freeware's inspiration, anyway... drawing
away from that free audience.  That's what I did at Interplay, Square and Midway.  It was Attack of the Clone-Wars.
Now... for all you Free-dom lovers out there... I have a trick to extend X-plane a bit past the 6 minute controlled demo
time if anyone REALLY wants to compare and learn more about it.    (just post me a <-Msg to get info)
...and feel free to check out & fly this little shuttle I made in X-plane at:  http://www.x-plane.org/users/reekchaa/

[DanSteph]

reekchaa wrote:
If Dan could develop his creation full-time, able to buy planes and more boats and corvettes and houses and
skyscrapers, we'd have a much happier Dan.  (And a deluxe DG9 by now).

May [whatewer you believe in] hear you

(slight error anyway in your text: it would be DGX by now... with abilities to prepare also the coffee and serve beer)


Dan



Post Edited ( 08-09-04 02:55 )

[Simonpro]

Another flight sim?
I didnt know orbiter was one :p

[Atom]

Space flight sim.

[reekchaa]

Ya know... I gotta say, the DG3 has Excellent Flight characteristics.  Great on stalls, FUN upper-atmospheric gliding for
aero-braking & bounce-offs.  I think 'Flying' is the best part of Orbiter.  It might not have visual turbulence like X-Plane
7.61 now, but I'm very happy with flight in orbiter.  It's getting More and More use as a Flight Sim, and gliding on Mars
is a lot funner in Orbiter than it is in X-P.

My sister thinks you're cute.

[Krytom]

reekchaa wrote:

My sister thinks you're cute.

Who's cute?!

( )

[freespace2dotcom]

me.

[Atom]

and me.

[DocHoliday]

Hey reekcha,

I totally I agree with what you said. Although I believe that Orbiter as a core module should remain closed as it is
now, Dr. Martin should make it possible for addon developers to earn a buck. This could very well be accomplished by
addon developers diverting a portion of their income to Martin. As a royalty or something like that. That way Martin
gets extra income without actually putting in the effort, appart from the effort invested in the current and new
versions of Orbiter.

The problem of course is, greedy addon developers and the rather small Orbiter user base, considering. The first
problem is sort of cancelled out by internal competition, the second one is rather constant. Orbiter is so specific a
simulator, a broad audience will never appreciate or understand it....

I heard though that PayPal sucks.. Plus it doesn't support Slovenia, so I can't actually pay to either Martin or Dan
using that.....

I wonder what Martin's point of view on that is....

[Mr Lightyear]

Doc in part I agree with what you have said there 100%, both sides of the argument.  
I have been around the Flightsim fraternity since the very first viable 8086 PC's we are talking way back in 85/86/87
with the very first precursor to todays Microsoft Flight Simulator.  As my sig presents I am involved with a Payware
addon company but I have to say that the FS market is flooded with the "Greedy Developers" and prices have gone
through the roof for what are in essence just an addon to enhance an already enjoyable Sim.  What makes the
difference is Quality and from what I have seen in Orbiter there is definate room for growth and major potential
but the Orbiter Sim has to come a long way as a standalone program to support payware, now this is my opinion
please do not flame me, I feel that those who make the effort to go the extra mile to produce superb Aircraft,
Spaceships, planetary systems etc deserve every cent or penny as I understand only too well the vast amounts of
time and effort these models etc  swallow.  

I just think its a tad early in Orbiter's development to be considering Payware products.  

Guys this is just a topic of debate, just putting forward an objective view for the sakes of discussion please try not to
flame me too much...

P.S. X-Plane is ok but it is far from value for money and has a long ways to go in Navigational accuracy, where it does win is in the Flight and Weather Dynamics these two are absolutely superb and FS has to play catch up considerably but if your looking for a good alround procedural trainer with more bells and whistles than you can shake a stick at then go for MS Flightsim 2004.   Now I am sure this last paragraph will attract much attention LOL!



Post Edited ( 08-18-04 04:34 )

[DocHoliday]

Yes, I would expect some people to set prices too high, but then noone would buy their work, so they'd have to
reduce it again... then again, the other extreme is, people working, but getting only the marginal money for it...

I dunno. There are two theories on approaching people who do excellent work in their spare time. One is to
appreciate them, by making it possible for them to earn some extra money, the other is to just appreciate them by
courtesy and not offer money, as they would get insulted... I don't really know which one applies for Orbiter
developers, but if it were money alone, they'd stop working long ago

Thanks about your comments. I never was a part of a payware team, so I really have no idea how that works (or
not). Don't worry about flaming. People around here are confident enough, not to feel the need to attack you for
stating your thoughts

And I agree MSFS2004 is what you should have if you're interested in accurate and realistic flying and I do have it.
Orbiter, however is so far the most accurate space flight sim, I've encountered. Of course, there are specialized
versions in both air and space flight, but we're not actually pilots or astronauts so these will do

Cheers,

[Mr Lightyear]

Doc,

You know I love Orbiter, have followed it since it was first released to the public.  Its the mutts as one would say, I
have to admit I havnt flown any atmospheric contraptions in Orbiter as I leave that to MSFS and I certainly wouldnt
want to compare the two as they are both simulating specific areas of flight as you so rightly said.  There are
payware Space Flight Simulators or rather Landers that to be honest I woudlnt consider paying for given the realm of
Orbiter and the fact that it is all free by the grace of the Doctor.  Paying for addons is always a tricky proposition, I
mean there was, not too long ago, a Payware Panavia Tornado releasedf and to be honest it was a complete let
down, I was looking forwards to an RAF GR1/1a version etc and there wasnt one, basically they had created a
German ECR variant and reskinned it for the RAF, German and Italian models (they are all diferent in detail) adn
naturally after all the hype and sales blurb telling me I was goign to get an RAF version I was very disapointed and bit
of a mug at spending $30+ for the damn thing.  Then a freeware group decided they were going to have a bash at
the GR1, 1a (Variant that is very close to me in real world) the GR4 and an F3 all in one go and of course they were all
free with every single nuance for each mark and model, complete with every skin under the sun etc.  One last thing to
note is that when one releases a payware model it has to be value for money, accurate in as much detail as you can
put on it the model and of course it has to fly right.  At the moment I am leading the Beta team on our F-20 project
and to be honest it has been a nightmare to get it looking and feeling right so we are not releasing a substandard
product and thus getting ourselves a duff reputation.  Payware = More hard work for a designer than most can
imagine and thats why your paying of course.

Its a very difficult subject and I think the Doc has made a wise decision to stear clear of the payware issue.

Good follow up Doc and thanks for the kind comments there.

P.S. If X-Plane can match this for detail (Complete with accurate AI Aircraft and liveries) then all Hail the alternative to
MSFS!:

Sorry for the size of the pic, was rushing and forgot to resize :S

[Atom]

Hey, nice A-10. Where did you get it? Also does anyone know where I can find a descent freeware Avro Vulcan for FS2004. I'm having difficulty finding one.



Post Edited ( 08-18-04 19:45 )

[Mr Lightyear]

Its a payware release by Aerosoft (http://aerosoft-shop.com/product_info.php?products_id=64), a hefty price tag of $48.15 CDN, $37 US, 29.95 Euros and about 20 odd quid (UK of course) but its worth every penny, my PC is an old P4
1.6Gig, 512meg DDR and a clapped out GeForce 4MX 64mb and I still get bloody decent framerates and display
quality, imagine what an ATI Radeon 9800XT or later cards would do!

A decent freeware Vulcan?  There isnt one that I know of.  A much forgotten aircraft in the FS2004 model world, hell
even the Victor was modelled freeware before the Vulcan!  
There are three payware Vulcans, two of which are, to be blunt, a complete and utter joke; First is the Alpha Simulations product (http://www.alphasim.co.uk/), its a damn good attempt and definately the better of the two clowns but it suffered from the age old Designers nightmare: Product Boredom.  If the designer had taken a break for a couple of weeks and come back to it to finish the aircraft off properly then it would have been a winner.  The real comedian is the FlightCraft Simulations (http://www.flightcraft-simulations.co.uk/), the guy has the right idea but the finished article is not upto par with the rest of the pack, even if this aircraft had been released freeware I think it would not have been recieved any better.  Its a great shame as they have gone to extreme lengths to cover most marks of the aircraft just a complete lack of care and attention to detail lets this product down.  The ace?  It has to be the Phoenix Simulation Software or PSS (http://www.phoenix-simulation.co.uk/) Vulcan.  Now ok you only get one model and one paint scheme but the aircraft is just superb, from the effects to the cockpit, from the model to the sounds everything is just Gucci!  I seriously cannot rave enough about this aircraft.  Its the mutts. The Virtual Cockpit is out of this world and the whole package is so easy on framerates.  Now this is an old model tho, it was built for FS2002 but it flies superbly in FS2004 and is really worth the pennies.



Post Edited ( 08-19-04 00:36 )

[Atom]

I reckon there is too much pay-ware add-ons for FS, people release work just as good for free. Your PC has an almost identical spec as mine. But thanks for the info on the Vulcan. But I have found some really good
free-ware planes. DSB have done some really nice planes. But they tend not to include panels and sound. That's what I tend to
look for. They don't seem complete other wise. Also do you know of the Grob Vigilant that DSB were meant to be working on?
Because I have been waiting for it and can't find it, I like to try and get planes I have flown in. Thanks.



Post Edited ( 08-18-04 23:08 )

[Mr Lightyear]

Well your lucky to get a decent Freeware package complete with Sounds and Panel thats for sure.  Even then most
panels are poorly produced photorealistic affairs.  The DSB Hawk is a full package, sound, panel and VC the new F-20
and F-5 will be the same but minus the sounds.  The price reflects this though, you wont find a cheaper payware
product out there, certainly of comparable quality.  The reason for no sounds is that DSB has a generic fast jet sound
set  taken from the Eurofighter Typhoon provided for DSB by none other than British Aerospace and they are crystal
clear, this sound set will be released freeware.  Also dont forget every DSB aircraft whether freeware or payware
comes complete with multiple skins and full weps load outs <---  Much more bang for your Buck be it Virtual or Real.

I agree there are far too many Payware products out there but one must consider that the Freeware Tornado by DSB
took in total over 2 years to get it to the present version, the Eurofighter took a year and the BAe Hawk package took a year and six months to complete with a team of 5 people.   The Captain Simulations F-104 had a team of 6 and that
took over two years, their C-130 is coming up to its second year of development and still no sign of a release. CS are the kings of quality, the price they charge is warranted, and this is where payware really justifies itself, as long as it presents value for money, is priced reasonably and, of course, must be of the utmost quality. My own opinion is that payware of any kind should never exceed $20-US and measures should be taken to accomodate those folk that do not have credit cards etc, but alas...

The Vigilant has been shelved indefinately for the moment as its a relatively small project.  For more info check out the
DSB Forums.



Post Edited ( 08-19-04 11:23 )

[Atom]

Freeware is all I can get, because;
1. I haven't much money at the moment.
2. And I have no credit card.

So I look quite hard for good freeware, and there is some out there. I understand the work that goes in to creating an add-on
for FS, and I understand why people charge money. But some people do almost the same amount of work and don't charge for it.
But it is their choice, so I can't complain.

[Mr Lightyear]

Oh defo, I am with you, some of the freeware stuff is just superb and every now and then one come sthru that is
nothing short of stupendous.   As you say at the end of the day its down to the designers choice whether he goes
payware or not, I will stand by and say that there is still a distinct divide between most Payware and Freeware, I
have never seen any freeware addon come close to Captain Simulations or PSS quality but on the other hand there
are those that leave a lot to be desired.

Going back to the original statement I agree 100% with those that say there is far too much Payware in the FS
community, free enterprise isnt always such a good thing, it serves to create a split between those that have and the
have nots and it is no wonder that the FS add-ons are pirated so much, but thats another debate altogether.

Vive la Freeware!

[Atom]

FS add-ons are pirated! 8o
But Battlefield 1942, has some amazing free-ware mods. In fact all of the mods are freeware and I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I
think more work goes into a BF 1942 mod than an FS add-on. With a Battlefield add-on you have the weapon sounds, weopon
models, vehicle models, scenery models, maps, general sounds, music theme and much more. The thing is it's all free. I love
it. There is hardly any pay-ware at all, in fact I don't know of any pay-ware for Battlefield 1942.

But I'm seriously changing subject so I stop here. (Go free-ware and all free-ware developers).

P.S. Your pic made the post writing thingy really wide.

[Mr Lightyear]

Quite, but BF1942 and BFVietnam are nothing more than toys lets face it, they are in no way a simulation.  I bought
them with great anticipation and was royally pissed when what I found was an arcade game rather than a decent sim
that was hyped to knock the likes of Operation Flashpoint into the depths to be never seen again...  The Dynamics etc
are nothing compared to FS, the textures are pish to be honest and the sounds are normally all generic.  Now if we
are talking Operation Flashpoint then thats a different matter all together as it really is a good stab at an all round
Sim.   As you say all of the mods for the BF series and OFP are all free but I am not going to say that FS payware isnt
justified as its a totally different ball game all together, in BF it doesnt really matter all that much how an airplane
looks, flies or sounds as long as it shoots stuff in glorious techno googe.  OFP all the aircraft fly like crap cos, as in
both games, they do not model atmospheric dynamics in any detail.  Its like walking into a shoe shop and asking for
designer flip flops, you dont really give a rats backside how they feel or how they protect your soles etc as long as
they have a flashy logo on em.

Payware is justified  and has a valid place in the FS community, there is no two ways about it but; as discussed
previously there are strong grounds for debate as to whether its all gone too far, which I think it has, personally.  The
prices are too high they have risen out of all proportion and reasoning over the last year or so, too many folk are
jumping on the band wagon with dubious modelling, texture and gauge design skills and charging the earth for their
efforts.   Some have blamed the economic crash since 9/11 in so much that there is low employment in North America
and Europe (which there is no denying) but I feel differently, I believe its a case of folk just joining the maddening
crowd to try and make bigs bucks.  The difference is when, as in the owner of DSB, a guy or a group of guys give up
their full time jobs to start a bonafide full time company to earn their living.  
We have to remember that as with the evolution of X-Plane (Which has its own payware arena) FS2004 is today a
completely different animal to what FS2002 was two years ago. The flight dynamics and visual modelling have become
a considerably more difficult because MS have opened the Goal Posts to realit .  People expect more out of their
models now than they did for FS5, 95 or 98 etc and as such it has become a very competitive and cut throat market.

Its a shame the younger folk have to miss out due to the lack of credit cards or to lose due to over pricing, something
DSB are well aware of hence our relative and very competative prices, we have also tried to make it easier for more
folk to get access to the products by adopting paypal payment etc.

Its not a perfect world, perfection is impossible within the limited bounds of personal computers but we can atleast do
our very best... Its all about balance.

[DanSteph]

Mr Lightyear wrote:
Payware is justified  and has a valid place in the FS community

Sure, In all things balance.

Making a sandwich take about 5 mn and 0.50$ of material but nobody would
ever have the idea to ask one for free in a bakery or yell like mad because
they charging 2$ for it.

A very good addon it's 6 month of work;  thousands hours of hard work
plus the add-on maker usually must buy the tool it use (3dmax, photoshop, Devstudio)
and that cost also money often it can make thousand dollars.

I know very well the pleasure that we can have to give work for free.
I also understand that peoples want freeware stuff there are many stuff on the net that
are free. I also understand that payware forbid many young people to buy them
because of the lake of credy card.

What I CAN'T understand is peoples (I don't mean on this forum specially) that yells
on payware (taken that they are of good quality and on a good price)

What I can't understand also is the fact that nobody donate when someone that
expensed thousand hours of his time give the possibility. I mean 15$ is usually
what earn a normal worker in 10mn and still nobody give those 10mn to reward
someone. I don't even speak about peoples that piss off authors that put a "donate"
button for their work (we saw that in the official forum some time ago) because they
are a very small minority, but they exist. (my jaw falled on the floor when I saw that)

I think this lack of volontary reward is one of the major cause of the Fs world
going Payware. That and the fact that modern game need 100 more time of work
than in the Amiga era. You cannot anymore work in your spare time and expect
a very good result.
I'm affraid it will go worse in the future: game are more and more demanding
thus the good add-ons will require more and more professionnal skill. Add-ons
will split in two: sucky freeware and *nice* payware.

My 15$

Dan



Post Edited ( 08-20-04 12:28 )

[Mr Lightyear]

Thats it exactly Dan.

[Atom]

I might get Operation Flashpoint. I'm not saying that pay-ware is bad. In fact most of the time I don't particulary
need it. I do fine on free-ware. And I agree Dan about add-ons beginning to cost more, games are growing more expensive too.
Soon we will end up with games costing $100 or so, they are already half way there. But as long as they are good, people (and
me) will continue to buy them.

But there will always be some, if only a little, but some good free-ware around. (At least I hope so).

I think I'm out of ideas.



Post Edited ( 08-20-04 12:57 )