Nice new tool to play with.

[DocHoliday]

Ugh, leave Free be. I he wanna use traditional he be using traditional

As far as calendars go. I AM all for instituting a calendar in which things would have SOME order, like same days
falling on the same weekday every year and the like. There have been  quite a few interesting attempts to unifiy the
calendar, one even accepted by ISO. I don't exactly remember how it was based, but it made a lot more sense than
the current one. I actually wanted to use it parallel to the ones we use now, but I was too lazy to actually do it, not
to mention I would probably end up a schizo in the process. There is only so far you can go against the world, before
it will proclaim you "socially unadjusted" or worse

But, change... it IS a constant, yet it is the ONE thing humans have a very hard time accepting. The Ohm's Law of
People -> Resistance to change.... In some things it makes sense in others not.

[freespace2dotcom]

But in order to have that, wouldn't you have to change the number of days in a year?

since there are an uneven 356.25 days in a year, naturally things tend to shift after the next year. Even more so
every 4 years. Personally I like it that it shifts.

Could you imagine it if your birthday was stuck on being on a monday every year? *shudder*

And even if you were lucky, some other poor sap would have it that way.

I already know I'm the social outcast, though. But that's cool. I don't suffer from peer pressure that way. I don't do
things just because everyone else is doing it. That goes from system of measurements to drugs.

Now for one thing, change does happen all the time.

just because people will go living on the moon doesn't mean that I will.

I like being grounded.

Although I have been able to do something different once.  Going from my glasses to contacts for 2 weeks.

Personally, I thought the experience was a total hell because my fingers just aren't that nimble... The only reason I
even did that was because I had to wait 2 weeks for my new glasses to be made and I lost my old ones.

Rather than be blind for two weeks, my eye doctor convinced me to get contacts for those two weeks.

If I had been that resistant of change, I would have have never done it.

Of course, the thought of getting contacts still disgust me, but now there's a small fraction of a chance that I might
buy some, as opposed to before.

But when people outlaw glasses, I'll be wringing that politician's neck along with the others that don't want to
change.

[DocHoliday]

More power to ya, but I categorically deny contacts. I'd rather be blind for two weeks I have a fixed idea that
contacts will infect my eyes, and they probably even would because of my wholesome rejection

Anyway, here's the link to the calendar I was talking about: http://personal.ecu.edu/mccartyr/world-calendar.html

Little goes against it but habit

Cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

I'd only wear special contacts for convention.

Regular glasses are so much easier to deal with than ruining your eyes by plucking those blasted things off your eyes.

As, for your calendar, I'd prefer it over a 10 month one, but I'd still keep what I have.

At least if that new thing came into being, my birthday would be on a sunday.

weekend birthdays! YAY!

But still.. My habit dictates that I want my birthday to fall on every weekday once every 7 years..

Furthermore, I see no provision in that calendar that addresses the other leap year issue every 100 years or so.



Post Edited ( 08-09-04 11:25 )

[Simonpro]

You said: since there are an uneven 356.25 days in a year
But you have been complaining about metric not using fractions - and here (gasp) YOU dont use fractions.
Stop being mixed up and get with the program.
It is not illegal to sell things in imperial units here - you just have to state the measurements in metric as well. Most
major supermarkets (Tescos, asda etc) still state weights and sizes in imperial units, then in smaller letters they give
the metric equivalent.
When will we switch to metric? When all the old farts and stick in the muds who are afraid of change die. Then we can
move forward.

[freespace2dotcom]

SIMON~~~!!

*Anime-style anger marks appear over freespace's head*

sorry for the confusion.. There are 365 and 1/4 days in a year.
no excuses for my behavior. I must commit seppuku now!

keh, I'm unphased by that. you can't have a quarter day on the calendar. that's why I called it uneven. BAKA!!

Like I have previously said. Metric DOES have it's advantages. There are some cases where decimal comes in handy, I
never said otherwise.

However. Maybe we should abolish fractions, seeing as they must clearly be outdated and useless for everything.

I'll never say 1/3 again.

from now on, it'll be       .333333333333333333333333333333333



Post Edited ( 08-09-04 13:11 )

[Simonpro]

Or maybe jsut 0.33|

[DocHoliday]

2B ^| 2b eh?

[Simonpro]

*Hides

[freespace2dotcom]

Hiding won't help, mister. Not when the big bad government comes.


Indeed. I'm the one on the defensive. I've already stated that I don't really care what you use. If you wish to go and
use your metric units, then you know what? God gave you the ability to choose that.

I've chosen what I want to use, just like you have. I've tried to be cool so far, and I feel I've stated reasons enough
for why I have chosen what I have. Yet you persist in bashing what I hold dear.

It's not so much a matter of fractions versus decmals, new or old, change versus status quo, right and wrong, nor
even better or worse.

It's about the ability to make up one's own mind. And the fact that people like you want to impose something on
other people is just downright screwy. Indeed, I cannot think of a single thing you can buy in america that doesn't
have a metric equivilent, with the exception being fresh fruit and maybe gasoline.

If that pisses you off, then there are PLENTY of other places you can go to that have it like that. If you don't want to
move, then all I can say is you can't have your cake and eat it too.

But even then, what happens in britain is none of my business, and rightly so. You'd tell be to buzz of the second I
started saying that you should spell color like I do. I have no problem with that, it's a matter of choice, and I should
respect you for what you want to do.

On that same note, if I want to use my units, then let me. I'm not hurting you. You surely won't lose any sleep over
me. If it's too much trouble to make a sweater, a wrench, or even a damn book for me, then don't make any. I'll get
someone in my own country who will. If It's too much trouble to buy something from us, then by all means, buy metric
sweaters. I don't care.

If you don't like miles, and it's too confusing to figure out, then feel free to not come over here. I'm not gonna force
you. I sure wouldn't go anywhere if I thought it'd be too much of a hassle.

The main push for america to go metric is not from within the populous, I assure you of that. It comes from outside
the country. These people want the american people to use a system that they do not want to use. No matter if
things might be beneficial afterwards.

WE, THE PEOPLE must make these choices for ourselves, not our damn politicians, not the asians, not the europeans,
not the africans, NOBODY but the people whose lives are directly affected can rightully make that choice.

If you tell me otherwise, then you're just as any dictator. And I absolutely refuse to live under tyranny from any
person, no matter how beneficial it might be afterward. I am not a sheeple who will follow it's blind leaders. I have
the ability to make my own choices. And even if those choices might bring me to hell itself, I still want to make that
decision for myself.

the people of britain, specifically the old "sticks in the mud" you referred to, understand that. Even so, they abide by
the rules of the system. They make that choice. But it takes a truely courageous person to just say no to the system,
regardless of however it may be in their best interests.

Think of the american revolution! How many people rebelled against britain, and for what? taxes that by today's
standards is a pittance. The crown told them that it was in their best interests to be taxed, so that they could get
protection. The people chose for themselves, and a full war erupted over it.

Can't you see, simon!?

It's nice that you wish to use metric, but I'm not going to switch to it for you, nor for anyone else at this forum. I have
no connections with any of you. I think you all are nice people, but when it comes down to it ultimately, the line is
drawn here, no farther. I'll stay on my side doing what I want, and you can feel free to come on my side as well, but if
you tell me that my car uses too much gas and must get a cheap compact car, then I wish to have no dealings with
you. It's that simple. just like I can't tell you how stupid it is to go to church and forbid you from it. Nor can I tell Dan
how much water he can use in his garden.

you might think that these have nothing to do with anything in this thread, but that's your loss.

What you think of me, my methods, and my choices are entirely up to you. But I will give you this one warning.

Do not step on me.


Of course, I realize that that may seem as a threat, and of course, I cannot deny that. I mean no offense to you,
simon. Nor do I mean offense to anyone else who pushes for metric in america. But wars have been fought for far
less trival things. Don't push me. Just respect me, and we can both be friends. Or if not friends, then at least
aquaintances on friendly terms, as I would prefer.

I am not afraid of the system, More importantly, you are just as insignifigant to the system as I am, so I'm sure not
scared of you. and while I may not start up a full-fledged rebellion over something like inches and pounds, I have my
threshold for governmental interferance, and rest assured, I will not tolerate nearly as much bullsh** as the average
american. I will respect you, but I won't run laps for you. I'm sure the same will apply for you on some level as well.

Further defense in words are useless, as you and I are completely opposed, simon. I can show you defiance to EU
and UN resolutions. Neither should have anything to do with the US. The former is an organization created to deal
with the affairs of europe, not america. that includes any form of deadline for the US to convert. The latter is an
organization created to eventually strip the sovereignty of every nation on the planet. I can show you defiance to lots
of things, including metrification. that's such a minor thing in comparison.

All right, With that said, I will apologize to anyone I have offended. my emotions got the most of me and I needed to
take off some steam. Nevertheless, these are my true feelings, and thus I will not take them back. I have shown why
I like what I like. This is really all the justification I think I really need. I know I said I wouldn't defend what I believed
seriously in this forum, and so I can only pray that dan forgives me for ruining his forum with politics, which I seem to
do so often...

but I feel that these things need to be said, so I'm ready for whatever happens. I wouldn't have clicked "post"
otherwise.  

[Simonpro]

Wow! Some people need to lighten up :p
Feel free to use imperial units, but feel free to take a sedative as well, since right now you appear to be more than
just a touch out of control
Anyhow:

>Hiding won't help, mister. Not when the big bad government comes.

I am sure it wont, however - the have much better things to do than complain at me.


>Indeed. I'm the one on the defensive. I've already stated that I don't really care what you use. If you wish to go
>and use your metric units, then you know what? God gave you the ability to choose that.

He may well have done, and i intend to use them - even though the country i live in forces me to use imperial.

>I've chosen what I want to use, just like you have. I've tried to be cool so far, and I feel I've stated reasons enough
>for why I have chosen what I have. Yet you persist in bashing what I hold dear.

Actually i have only bashed imperial units once, after that i simply bashed the people in this country who still use
them. There is a difference.

>It's not so much a matter of fractions versus decmals, new or old, change versus status quo, right and wrong, nor
>even better or worse.

Actually  it is about change. We (and you) are using one system and some people wish to change to another, more
(imho) useful system.



>It's about the ability to make up one's own mind. And the fact that people like you want to impose something on
>other people is just downright screwy. Indeed, I cannot think of a single thing you can buy in america that doesn't
>have a metric equivilent, with the exception being fresh fruit and maybe gasoline.

The best plan would be to introduce both metric and imperial units together, as they have done here. Keep that for
10 or 15 years and then most middle aged people and all children will be used to metric. No problems.

>If that pisses you off, then there are PLENTY of other places you can go to that have it like that. If you don't want to
>move, then all I can say is you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Well, one of the few places in america that does (or is supposed to) use metric is nasa. And as i work in the space
industry that means, ooh, that i am ok

>But even then, what happens in britain is none of my business, and rightly so. You'd tell be to buzz of the second I
>started saying that you should spell color like I do. I have no problem with that, it's a matter of choice, and I should
>respect you for what you want to do.

Feel free to tell me how to run this country. I dont really pay any attention to anyone anyway. I just take their views
onboard and see what they think

>On that same note, if I want to use my units, then let me. I'm not hurting you. You surely won't lose any sleep over
>me. If it's too much trouble to make a sweater, a wrench, or even a damn book for me, then don't make any. I'll get
>someone in my own country who will. If It's too much trouble to buy something from us, then by all means, buy
>metric sweaters. I don't care.

Wtf is a metric sweater? :o

>If you don't like miles, and it's too confusing to figure out, then feel free to not come over here. I'm not gonna force
>you. I sure wouldn't go anywhere if I thought it'd be too much of a hassle.

If we went on holiday to places where everything was comfortable then whats the point? The only reason i go on
holidays to other countries is to experience different cultures, and imperial units are part of the american culture.

>The main push for america to go metric is not from within the populous, I assure you of that. It comes from outside
>the country. These people want the american people to use a system that they do not want to use. No matter if
>things might be beneficial afterwards.

That is because the american people are not used to metric. Britons were not used to it before it was introduced, and
now the majority of the populous uses it effortlessly.

>WE, THE PEOPLE must make these choices for ourselves, not our damn politicians, not the asians, not the
>europeans, not the africans, NOBODY but the people whose lives are directly affected can rightully make that choice.

Aaah, so its not your government who makes the choices, then? Anyway, how exactly can the europeans tell you
what to do? We can put pressure on you to do things, but we cant make you do them. We do that to you, you do
that to us - its called diplomacy.

>If you tell me otherwise, then you're just as any dictator. And I absolutely refuse to live under tyranny from any
>person, no matter how beneficial it might be afterward. I am not a sheeple who will follow it's blind leaders. I have
>the ability to make my own choices. And even if those choices might bring me to hell itself, I still want to make that
>decision for myself.

Didnt know i was the dictator of britain. You seem to be confusing me with someone in charge of a country.

>the people of britain, specifically the old "sticks in the mud" you referred to, understand that. Even so, they abide by
>the rules of the system. They make that choice. But it takes a truely courageous person to just say no to the
>system, regardless of however it may be in their best interests.

Actually, my grandparents both use imperial units still. Why? Because they cannot see the point in changing to new
units. "ive used these all my life, why change now?"
Some people used horse and carts their entire lives, so why do we have the car?

>Think of the american revolution! How many people rebelled against britain, and for what? taxes that by today's
>standards is a pittance. The crown told them that it was in their best interests to be taxed, so that they could get
>protection. The people chose for themselves, and a full war erupted over it.

Yes, that is amazingly similar.

>Can't you see, simon!?
Apparently not

>It's nice that you wish to use metric, but I'm not going to switch to it for you, nor for anyone else at this forum. I
>have no connections with any of you. I think you all are nice people, but when it comes down to it ultimately, the line
>is drawn here, no farther. I'll stay on my side doing what I want, and you can feel free to come on my side as well,
>but if
>you tell me that my car uses too much gas and must get a cheap compact car, then I wish to have no dealings with
>you. It's that simple. just like I can't tell you how stupid it is to go to church and forbid you from it. Nor can I tell Dan
>how much water he can use in his garden.

I cant remember actually asking you to switch.
As i recall you asked me to switch to imperial


>you might think that these have nothing to do with anything in this thread, but that's your loss.
No, i see how they relate, and i agree with you on the gas point. But then maybe we should research more fuel
efficient forms of transport.
Much like metric can be more efficient than imperial.

>What you think of me, my methods, and my choices are entirely up to you. But I will give you this one warning.
Yes, and vice-versa

>Do not step on me.
I dont appear to be


>Of course, I realize that that may seem as a threat, and of course, I cannot deny that. I mean no offense to you,
>simon. Nor do I mean offense to anyone else who pushes for metric in america. But wars have been fought for far
>less trival things. Don't push me. Just respect me, and we can both be friends. Or if not friends, then at least
>aquaintances on friendly terms, as I would prefer.

Care to name a "less trivial thing"? Cant think of many thigns wars have started over, but knowing how stupid the
human race has been then ill agree with you

>I am not afraid of the system, More importantly, you are just as insignifigant to the system as I am, so I'm sure not
>scared of you. and while I may not start up a full-fledged rebellion over something like inches and pounds, I have my
>threshold for governmental interferance, and rest assured, I will not tolerate nearly as much bullsh** as the
>average american. I will respect you, but I won't run laps for you. I'm sure the same will apply for you on some level
>as well.

Not afraid of the system, sounds like you have a case of conspiracy-theory-itis.
Considering how little bullshit the average american tolerates then i find it hard to believe you tolerate less (that is
not a pt down, btw). You are just getting silly now though. What on earth is the system?

>Further defense in words are useless, as you and I are completely opposed, simon. I can show you defiance to EU
>and UN resolutions. Neither should have anything to do with the US. The former is an organization created to deal
>with the affairs of europe, not america. that includes any form of deadline for the US to convert. The latter is an
>organization created to eventually strip the sovereignty of every nation on the planet. I can show you defiance to
>lots of things, including metrification. that's such a minor thing in comparison.

I am getting really suspicious no, and i suggest you stop reading all these socialist books :p

>All right, With that said, I will apologize to anyone I have offended. my emotions got the most of me and I needed to
>take off some steam. Nevertheless, these are my true feelings, and thus I will not take them back. I have shown
>why I like what I like. This is really all the justification I think I really need. I know I said I wouldn't defend what I
>believed seriously in this forum, and so I can only pray that dan forgives me for ruining his forum with politics, which
>I seem to do so often...

You have not shown me why you like imperial units actually.
I hope to not have offended anyone either, that was not my intention

>but I feel that these things need to be said, so I'm ready for whatever happens. I wouldn't have clicked "post"
>otherwise.

the black agents are on their way.
*runs off

Cheers,
Simon

[DocHoliday]

Okay, metric system aside, but do you really think EU is trying to impose things to you? I assume we are speaking in
more broad terms than just metric. Do you really believe that the rest of the world feels they are in any position to
institute ANYTHING to the US. Being the last standing superpower and all. I mean if we do, we can expect to be
declared terrorists and promptly dispatched....

I mean, the way I see it, no one is forcing US to use metric (as an example), it's just that all the rest (even British)
are going to make it standard soon, so you will be left out. Same thing with International Law, Euro and Trade
Exchange. You know I very well understand the "don't thread on me" principle and fully support it, but when does it
fail...? In the spirit of free enterprise, if you do not adapt, the competition will push you aside. With more or less ugly
consequences for the whole America.

It seems to me that the ones who ARE forcing you and others who think like you are actually Americans, but with a
different view on it. So I guess the debate is really inside US and EU has little to do with it now, that the idea has
been laid, so to speak. You are right, it is you who have to decide and you alone did. The problem with democracy or
republic or any other system for that matter is, that if you are in the minority group your decisions and values will
always be thread upon, by the majority or the rulling class, whatever the case.

Is it a fact that EU is using some kind of pressure (not advertised in Europe) to force you into such compromizes
(again, metric being a marginal example). I am honestly currious....

Cheers,

[Simonpro]

Yes, when all of europe is using the metric system it will remove some trading barriers both within europe and to
toehr metric countries. This will reduce the trading prices for various goods, and in the long run it may become more
expensive to import goods from america - which is bad for the economy.
In the long run america may well be left out in the cold, and if that is the case then i, personally, imagine them
changing to metric fairly smartish.

[DocHoliday]

Actually Simon I am starting to realise that America blew it already. With people like me it has. I had great respect for
it.. say 10-15 years ago. Now, I feel it is a wounded beast, trying to inflict as much damage as possible before the
inevitable counts. Hence all the fear, panic, terrorism, even asteroids dammit... everything to give reason to outer
violence.

And then you have people like Freespace, who know they can't do much while they are there, have an excellent set
of brains but live in an environment where brains are seen as potencially dangerous... Mixing up patriotism with free
choice, external politics with foreign devil influence is only a natural effect of being born and raised in 21st Century
America... And any other country for that matter. Only the rest of us are so small and rather weak compared, it
doesn't show......

I highly respect Freespace. And it REALLY worries me that people like him are actually so rare in America itsn't not
even funny. As Kerry says, America still HAS a great future ahead of itself, but it so critically depends on their people I
fear it's slipping away.. They would need people like Freespace, and freespace would never do it, because he prefers
to be on the outskirt, not the center. And if he were to lead a country like that, he would immediatelly be executed by
counter interests, because he would put future as a goal not immediate gratification, which the american people have
been so well trained to accustomed to..... pointless then innit?

PS: Free take your time in replying. We're not hostile (I'm sure Simon's not either, appart from being sarcastic), I am genuinely interested in your points of view as they are - as funny as it seems (thank the country specific  indoctrinations) - alien to me. Normally we don't realise it, with regular chit chat, but with topics like these it becomes shockingly clear how differently we were "influenced"....



Post Edited ( 08-09-04 16:33 )

[freespace2dotcom]

Wow! Some people need to lighten up :p
Feel free to use imperial units, but feel free to take a sedative as well, since right now you appear to be more than
just a touch out of control
Anyhow:

hehe.. Maybe I do need some sedatives. Maybe I need to take some other, fancy psyco drugs. Either way, I'm not
going to. A social worker at my school suggested once that I should take anti-depressants one time. I thank god that
back then it was not mandatory, and my mother refused it. nowadasys the government can take your child away if you disagree.

>Hiding won't help, mister. Not when the big bad government comes.
I am sure it wont, however - the have much better things to do than complain at me.

No they don't, trust me on this one.

>Indeed. I'm the one on the defensive. I've already stated that I don't really care what you use. If you wish to go
>and use your metric units, then you know what? God gave you the ability to choose that.

He may well have done, and i intend to use them - even though the country i live in forces me to use imperial.

Well, I don't know the full scope of metrification there, but I'm sure if you hate tradition units so badly you can find
somewhere else to go...

>I've chosen what I want to use, just like you have. I've tried to be cool so far, and I feel I've stated reasons
enough
>for why I have chosen what I have. Yet you persist in bashing what I hold dear.

Actually i have only bashed imperial units once, after that i simply bashed the people in this country who still use
them. There is a difference.

I'm not so sure it's all that big a difference, But I'll acknowledge that there is one.

>It's not so much a matter of fractions versus decmals, new or old, change versus status quo, right and
wrong, nor
>even better or worse.

Actually it is about change. We (and you) are using one system and some people wish to change to another, more
(imho) useful system.

As I said, it's not so much about change, as it is about making decisions. I refuse to change. That's my choice. I'm
willing to bet the vast majority are of the same attitude. therefore, if even our own government tells us to switch,
even without any outside influence, that's a breach of trust, and I really don't understand how anyone would put up
with that.

>It's about the ability to make up one's own mind. And the fact that people like you want to impose something
on
>other people is just downright screwy. Indeed, I cannot think of a single thing you can buy in america that doesn't
>have a metric equivilent, with the exception being fresh fruit and maybe gasoline.

The best plan would be to introduce both metric and imperial units together, as they have done here. Keep that for
10 or 15 years and then most middle aged people and all children will be used to metric. No problems.

With a few exceptions I refered to and possibly a few more that I can't think of, america is ALREADY LIKE THAT!

Example. Vaseline, a hand lotion ointment they make. It has the amount of it right on the label. 942ml (31.8 fl. oz.)
It's just like how it was typed.

I took a kelloggs cereal box from my kitchen, and it says:

Net wt. 17.5 OZ. (1 LB. 1.5 OZ) (496g)

you want more? here's a campbell's soup can:

NET WT. 26 OZ (1 LB. 10 OZ) (737g)

Metric is already in america. Believe it or not, it IS!!!! But the people still don't want it.

>If that pisses you off, then there are PLENTY of other places you can go to that have it like that. If you don't
want to
>move, then all I can say is you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Well, one of the few places in america that does (or is supposed to) use metric is nasa. And as i work in the space
industry that means, ooh, that i am ok

I don't know what nasa uses, but I did hear that the shuttle program uses inches and pounds still. Don't know if
that's up to date, though

>But even then, what happens in britain is none of my business, and rightly so. You'd tell be to buzz of the
second I
>started saying that you should spell color like I do. I have no problem with that, it's a matter of choice, and I should
>respect you for what you want to do.

Feel free to tell me how to run this country. I dont really pay any attention to anyone anyway. I just take their views
onboard and see what they think

I'd rather be more focused on the events of my own country. I don't particulary care what happens elsewhere.

>On that same note, if I want to use my units, then let me. I'm not hurting you. You surely won't lose any
sleep over
>me. If it's too much trouble to make a sweater, a wrench, or even a damn book for me, then don't make any. I'll get
>someone in my own country who will. If It's too much trouble to buy something from us, then by all means, buy
>metric sweaters. I don't care.

Wtf is a metric sweater? :o

What? do you still measure waists in inches? that's not metric, you know...

>If you don't like miles, and it's too confusing to figure out, then feel free to not come over here. I'm not
gonna force
>you. I sure wouldn't go anywhere if I thought it'd be too much of a hassle.

If we went on holiday to places where everything was comfortable then whats the point? The only reason i go on
holidays to other countries is to experience different cultures, and imperial units are part of the american culture.

I sure didn't expect to hear that.... from you...

>The main push for america to go metric is not from within the populous, I assure you of that. It comes from
outside
>the country. These people want the american people to use a system that they do not want to use. No matter if
>things might be beneficial afterwards.

That is because the american people are not used to metric. Britons were not used to it before it was introduced, and
now the majority of the populous uses it effortlessly.

I tell you already. There are very few things in america that does not have metric on them.

Thinking about it, road signs aren't metric, but until the government tell us that we volunteered to convert to metric
officially, I don't think  that will happen, although If I remember my grandfather, it was that way, where metric and traditional were together, but the people complained too much...

>WE, THE PEOPLE must make these choices for ourselves, not our damn politicians, not the asians, not the
>europeans, not the africans, NOBODY but the people whose lives are directly affected can rightully make that choice.

Aaah, so its not your government who makes the choices, then? Anyway, how exactly can the europeans tell you
what to do? We can put pressure on you to do things, but we cant make you do them. We do that to you, you do
that to us - its called diplomacy.

First off, the governemt does technically make the choices, but the choices it makes is supposed to reflect the will of
the people. clearly it doesn't really, as a lot more people were against the war in iraq than you'd ever hear on the
media.  As for the diplomacy issue, I know, but it's that pressure that I'm against. If I had my way, america would
mind it's own business. neither extending it's will on others, nor accepting the will of others.

>If you tell me otherwise, then you're just as any dictator. And I absolutely refuse to live under tyranny from
any
>person, no matter how beneficial it might be afterward. I am not a sheeple who will follow it's blind leaders. I have
>the ability to make my own choices. And even if those choices might bring me to hell itself, I still want to make that
>decision for myself.

Didnt know i was the dictator of britain. You seem to be confusing me with someone in charge of a country.

keh, I never claimed you were, but I did say that if you think you can tell me what I can or can't do, you are just as
bad as one. If you think you don't apply to that, then just ignore it.

>the people of britain, specifically the old "sticks in the mud" you referred to, understand that. Even so, they
abide by
>the rules of the system. They make that choice. But it takes a truely courageous person to just say no to the
>system, regardless of however it may be in their best interests.

Actually, my grandparents both use imperial units still. Why? Because they cannot see the point in changing to new
units. "ive used these all my life, why change now?"
Some people used horse and carts their entire lives, so why do we have the car?

Why don't we have personal helicopters?

>Think of the american revolution! How many people rebelled against britain, and for what? taxes that by
today's
>standards is a pittance. The crown told them that it was in their best interests to be taxed, so that they could get
>protection. The people chose for themselves, and a full war erupted over it.

Yes, that is amazingly similar.

>Can't you see, simon!?
Apparently not

*sigh*

>It's nice that you wish to use metric, but I'm not going to switch to it for you, nor for anyone else at this
forum. I
>have no connections with any of you. I think you all are nice people, but when it comes down to it ultimately, the line
>is drawn here, no farther. I'll stay on my side doing what I want, and you can feel free to come on my side as well,
>but if
>you tell me that my car uses too much gas and must get a cheap compact car, then I wish to have no dealings with
>you. It's that simple. just like I can't tell you how stupid it is to go to church and forbid you from it. Nor can I tell Dan
>how much water he can use in his garden.

I cant remember actually asking you to switch.
As i recall you asked me to switch to imperial

Thinking about it, you never did tell me to switch, but you seem to wish to purge the world of something that I use,
which would have to make me change, would it not? But please tell me where I told you that you should switch.

>you might think that these have nothing to do with anything in this thread, but that's your loss.
No, i see how they relate, and i agree with you on the gas point. But then maybe we should research more fuel
efficient forms of transport.
Much like metric can be more efficient than imperial.

personal helicopters! no more traffic! less gas wasted on sitting in it. think about it

>What you think of me, my methods, and my choices are entirely up to you. But I will give you this one
warning.
Yes, and vice-versa

>Do not step on me.
I dont appear to be

By taking away what I want. The government steps on me. Those who would like to see the government do this are
guilty by association. Of course, if you feel this does not apply to you, then ignore it. But I still warn those who would.

>Of course, I realize that that may seem as a threat, and of course, I cannot deny that. I mean no offense to
you,
>simon. Nor do I mean offense to anyone else who pushes for metric in america. But wars have been fought for far
>less trival things. Don't push me. Just respect me, and we can both be friends. Or if not friends, then at least
>aquaintances on friendly terms, as I would prefer.

Care to name a "less trivial thing"? Cant think of many thigns wars have started over, but knowing how stupid the
human race has been then ill agree with you

Mere insults to a person. I'm not refering to WW1 or anything near that scale in bloodshed. but by and large a few
noblemen got into a disagreement and bam, a skirmish breaks out between small armys. naturally, that's not
impressive, but i'd still call it a war. the crown doesn't like this happening everywhere so they put an end to it, and
from then on, people had duels between the two of them. This is where fencing came from, is it not?

>I am not afraid of the system, More importantly, you are just as insignifigant to the system as I am, so I'm sure not
>scared of you. and while I may not start up a full-fledged rebellion over something like inches and pounds, I have my
>threshold for governmental interferance, and rest assured, I will not tolerate nearly as much bullsh** as the
>average american. I will respect you, but I won't run laps for you. I'm sure the same will apply for you on some level
>as well.

Not afraid of the system, sounds like you have a case of conspiracy-theory-itis.
Considering how little bullshit the average american tolerates then i find it hard to believe you tolerate less (that is
not a pt down, btw). You are just getting silly now though. What on earth is the system?

I might have conspiracy-itis, but I really feel it coming, man. just look at revelations 13 in the bible and the latest
microchips to be used in economic transactions.

I refer to a massive plan to globalize the world in a new world order. Metric to me is but a smal part in that
globalization effort. Which is in at least a small part of why I don't like it. Of course, you might think me completely
stupid, but hey. I'm not so against metric, it's really a trifle compared to a global currency. but I still don't like it.

The system is the power structure used in bringing this New world order.

Of course, I'm not going to go on with this, because I'm not trying to convince people of that. My goal is in keeping my
inches.

>Further defense in words are useless, as you and I are completely opposed, simon. I can show you defiance
to EU
>and UN resolutions. Neither should have anything to do with the US. The former is an organization created to deal
>with the affairs of europe, not america. that includes any form of deadline for the US to convert. The latter is an
>organization created to eventually strip the sovereignty of every nation on the planet. I can show you defiance to
>lots of things, including metrification. that's such a minor thing in comparison.
I am getting really suspicious no, and i suggest you stop reading all these socialist books :p

I don't read socialist books. The league of nations was the attempt to create such an organization after WW1, but
americans sniffed that out and so without american support, it sank.

During the korea conflict, macarthur had to clear his plans with truman, who in turn gave them to the UN, who in turn
gave them to our enemies. This is all part to get the americans tired of war and to submit to the will of the UN.
Macarthur realized this and decided to attack withough showing his plans. as a result, he was fired by truman.

vietnam was a similar ordeal.

But then, we don't want to talk about that. We wan't to discuss metric.

>All right, With that said, I will apologize to anyone I have offended. my emotions got the most of me and I
needed to
>take off some steam. Nevertheless, these are my true feelings, and thus I will not take them back. I have shown
>why I like what I like. This is really all the justification I think I really need. I know I said I wouldn't defend what I
>believed seriously in this forum, and so I can only pray that dan forgives me for ruining his forum with politics, which
>I seem to do so often...

You have not shown me why you like imperial units actually.
I hope to not have offended anyone either, that was not my intention

I like them because they are a part of american culture, etc, etc. One might as well start making us learn esperanto
for the national language.
It is true that I grew up with them, and thus am somewhat stubborn... but that's life....

>but I feel that these things need to be said, so I'm ready for whatever happens. I wouldn't have clicked "post"
>otherwise.

the black agents are on their way.
*runs off

You can't escape their black helicopters. They have technology you wouldn't believe.



Post Edited ( 08-09-04 18:00 )

[Krytom]

8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o
8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o
8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o8o

OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's what I call an essay.
I'd hate to think of what Doc is about to post in reply.

[freespace2dotcom]

Oh, crap! I didn't realize it was that big!

sorry dan...



Post Edited ( 08-09-04 18:19 )

[Shmi]

DocHoliday wrote:
*Doc whispers to freespace* Tell him.. option... use.. im..erial....units.. instea.. ..dumb....metr.... I mean.. he's.. brit..
he..shou...apprecia... them

It was Doc who started this whole imperial/traditional versus metric argument between Simon and Freespace!

[freespace2dotcom]

I didn't see the three posts before my big one.

in any case, "force" is too strong a word, but.. It's more than a passing interest if you ask me.

What's interesting is the US metric association's number one reason for converting.

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/qanda.htm

Question: We have a perfectly good measuring system, so why does the USA have to change to using the metric
system?

Answer: We are living in a metric world where just about every country, except the USA, uses the metric system, and
other countries are now telling us that they don't want to buy some of the products manufactured by U.S. companies
if they aren't made to metric sizes (and if they aren't labeled in metric units). Many European Union (EU) countries,
which have been good customers of U.S. companies, don't allow products into their countries unless they are made to
metric system standards. We must operate in the world marketplace, and we can't stay competitive if we don't
provide metric goods. With 99% of the rest of the world using metric, there is no chance we can persuade them to
use our inches and pounds.

personally, I feel that that is a clear statement that the EU as well as other countries are applying quite a bit of
pressure on the US to convert.
Although I would have to say that there is plenty of room to expand our industry to focus on domestic issues, rather
than persuade people to use our system if they don't want to.

We can start making things again, instead of buying them from taiwan. We could do countless things to keep US
businesses competitive, even if not in the international market. Our own population can't absorb the things we do
make because we make too much of one thing. We need to find a way to be able to make the cheaper things again
without it being too expensive to hire an american for the job rather than offshore the job. And I would be willing to
bet that the key to that would be in re-strengthening the dollar with a silver and gold standard. that would answer
the other questions given too.

And I could go on and on about wal-mart. I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep if they lost some lawsuit and went bankrupt.

well, guys, Have you heard anything about EU countries refusing to buy things not in metric standards? I'd love to
know about that myself.

[DocHoliday]

No, I haven't heard anything about it, but I will check. I'm sure we don't do it, then again, we are not a major trader
with US. It is quite probably France and Germany could come up with an idea like that, but that would only mean,
they want the customer to have convenience. You really cannot expect people who used metric all their life to
understand traditional/imperial. I mean that would be like you trying to force it on us then... You should do the same
and ban EU imports that ARE in metric then... this sort of "lessons" worked in the past So the measurements are
preconverted for the area of the world they are supposed to be sold in. It makes a lot of sonse to me.

Hehe, lemme just go through the posts. I'm sure I won't make an even longer post than that. Hopefully this isn't
seen as an argument, but a discussion or rather exchange of opinion.

I mean what other direct channel of idea exchange DO we have, appart from media, which obviously keeps our
perceptions distorted?

[DocHoliday]

Hehe, you didn't reply to my post yet and I won't interfere in your discussion with Simon. Very informative. I hope you
keep it in the same spirit and don't reduce it to anything less than a insult-free opinion exchange.

As a moderator I would like to say that this sort of thread would have been banned a long time ago on the main
forum, (I mean it IS about Simons utilities) but not here, as long as we keep it civilized. And yes, I may have started
it, but I understand Free, so mentioning metric units - I feel - is like a good inside joke to us, although Free has a lot
of strong opinions associated on this particular topic.

Also I was not called a flame baiter by anyone and that alone means we have a good thing going here, unless Dan
decides we went too far

Cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

Eh.. I can take a joke too... but brace yourself, this is another long one...

It's just that... well, I'm an opinionated, pompous, jerk. And that, tied to my sarcasm... (which is heavily
influencing my posts in this thread, btw) In any case, I can see that I have a lack of comunication. I want to clear a
few things..

first off, I want to know what simon thinks of metrification in the US specifically. From what he said, it had sounded
like the traditional units are obsolite. That, along with other statements, got me to assuming that you are for the US
going metric. considering that you clearly prefer metric, and that you've mentioned statements about britain going
metric. that's all fine and dandy.

But I have a tendancy to try to read underneath what's said. It happens pretty much subconsciously, and it's a result
from many things, not the least of which were my grandfather's bible studies.
And my exposure to politics...

If I was to put it into a math equation, I try to solve for X given the other two variables.

When I did this, it sounded very much like you were impeding on my choices by being gung-ho for US metrification.
I apologize if that's not the case, but I am rather rash and paranoid. It's 'cuz I'm human.

when I lose my temper, I really blow up, which is a bad thing in intellectual conversations.. but I'd like to think that I
have a fairly long fuse, so it takes a while...

My attempts to convince you why I choose traditional units, were met with percieved hostility, and repeated claims at
how metric is "more efficient" "friendly" and whatnot.

These are pretty much the same things I've been hearing lately in the effort to convert us archaic inch users to the
future. forgive me if I saw a connection in that.

So again, I don't particularly care what britain uses, with the exception that when it does go metric, it will be an
overwhelming excuse for the metrigandists to cry crocodile tears and tell people like me to "get with the program"
and go metric.

Simon, you yourself said "Stop being mixed up and get with the program." That just pushed me off the edge and thus
we have huge essays for posts now.

Again, I do say that decimal has it's advantages, Therefore, I use them. but sometimes fractions are a hell of a lot
more friendly for me to use. Therefore, I use them.

If I think a problem is to complex to figure out in inches, then I'll probably use metric. I think it's a nice thing, and I'm
not really against it, but I'm not going to let it replace my 36 inch yard.

Simon, You clearly spoke of eventually converting to metric, by allowing miles to stay with kilometers for 10 years or
so. which for this post I will assume you were merely talking about britain. I'm not really for that, but again, I have no
say in it. However, america will face the same thing, and again I can't help but see the comparisons. and thus I think
you guys can see where this all started.

Now then, doc, I don't know if you realize this, But I'm not alone in thinking that the EU will be the next superpower in
the world. And yes, I'm dead serious.

Whether or not you see yourself as one country or not, I will explain a few things. All countries in the EU have, or
eventually will have the Euro as a common currency. I don't think anybody argues with that. That's sign #1 of being
one country.

There is a form of government above the national european governments. While I don't really know all that much
about it, I've heard it compared to a confederacy, a loose group of nations united, yet still very much separate and
unique.

I should tell you that originally the american colonies were very much independant from each other. The very first
government they created was not the one in place today.

Look up "articles of the confederation"

Personally, I think that THAT government would have been far better than the current one if they would have given it
a few more powers, namely, the power to make money.

the point I'm getting at is eventually, the first confederation of america was dismissed because it was deemed too
inneffectual. Thus the federal government all americans love to hate was created.

History repeats itself. and I strongly suspect that all it will take is some diversion, or some action to create that
innefectualness in the EU. If that happens, beware, because all it will take is a few motions of how much better it is
and boom, there goes your national sovereignty.

What happens then is you have one nation. a superpower not unlike the US.

Of course that may just be a conspiracy theory, but I'd keep my eyes open just the same.

Here's another conspiracy theory. hang in there, this one's not gonna go down the hatch with just a spoonful of
sugar.

An american general by the name of Tom Franks, once said, not too long ago, that another terrorist attack on the US
of sufficiant magnitude could create a.. well, read it for yourself.

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/211103martiallaw.html

Now a general does not say that on a whim, you understand? He has access to info the public does not.

Now let's say that this supposed attack happens, and a dicatorship is formed in america. I think that's VERY similar to
nazi germany. Believe it or not, but there are MANY prison facilities already built in america, They are empty, and just
sitting there. google it. So what happens? This dicatorship rounds up every thinking american who could pose a
threat, label them as terrorists, and ship them off to these camps and they get their heads cut off.

This whole event could possibly be the trigger to this EU ineffectualness, which causes europe to unite and wage war
with amerika. Causing a full fledged WW3, with no holds barred.

After all is said and done, and billions have been killed, (thus solving overpopulation) The people will be so tired of
war they'd embrace a global government. The electronic microchip currency, everything.

And before you ask, yes I believe that events will proceed like that, and that's it's all planned out. but exactly how it
happens is anyone's guess. And all of this in the sake of ruling the world.

Dan, I bet whatever you possibly though at my age can't compare to this. It's actually pretty frightening for me to
truly think that something like this might very well happen. I truly hope I'm wrong, But at the same time, I can't very
well just say that it's impossible just because and shrug it off.

especially when It all fits so well in my head. I ask you not to believe what I say, but merely to understand why I say
it.

I know it sounds totally bogus. believe me, I do. Take a look at leonardo davinci's drawings, things like helicopters?
He must have been crazy, or very smart. people of his time would likely say the former, and we now would say the
latter. Just take what I say in jest, but if something like this does happen, remember me.

Oh, we were talking about metric, weren't we?

Well, I got carried away in explaining to doc my opinions concerning  world influence...

[DocHoliday]

Good. You should partition it into multiple posts, get a better count Mr. Legend No. 1

Printing the post and going for a coffee break.

[reekchaa]

Hmm... wasn't it Neal Armstrong who said,  
"I'm just glad I live in a country where I'm free to worship my dictator as I see fit"  ?
or was that Batman?

Anyhoo... Thanks for sharing your utility, Simon.  Metric's cool.  Don't drink and drive.  Stay in school.  Up with People.  
4 more Years?  Just say No!

(and other imperially sarcastic sloganeering)  

[freespace2dotcom]

hehe.. sorry for the big posts....

maybe I should just say no...