Nice new tool to play with.

[DanSteph]

freespace2dotcom wrote:
I see nothing wrong with just being isolated from everything else. It's best to be independent. It's the nature of
humankind. (we do grow up and become independent of our parents, don't we? )
We don't want to go against our nature, do we?

mhhh sorry that's plain wrong... humain story is all about exchange either commercial
technological or ideological, nobody nor civ can grow alone an survive alone.

We are a mix of many civilisation before us from the first know "humain"
to civ like sumerian, egiptian, greek, romain, celt, etc etc  

Many words; technics; philospophy and knowledge (even the "imperial" system)
you use everyday come from those forgiven civ. The strenght of the imperial roman
come mainly because they welcomed and assimilated so well what was good in
others civ, they where very dynamicall at those time, Then they forgeted this dynamic,
started to close the door and disappeared.

And america you lucky are perhaps actually the biggest mix of civilisation and your actuall
strenght is perhaps because you welcome so well any idea or things from others,
you are the champion of communication and exchange.

Isolationism mean death for civs.

Edit: this is why I piss with so much fun on nationalist: I can't hardly think of a greater dumb
way of thinking. (mhhh in fact yes I can but that's another subject

Dan



Post Edited ( 08-05-04 20:45 )

[freespace2dotcom]

Well dan. It looks like we're fundamentally divided on this line. I can respect your line of thinking, but I confess I'm not
thrilled....


Personally, I think that if there was such a benefit (economic or otherwise) to switching to metric, then america'd have
done it long ago.

I would argue that rome died because it got too big, and thus too culturally diverse. (of course among other things)

A house divided cannot stand, so the saying goes.

Now what I have to say is this. A civilization very easily can grow alone.

If a global state was to form overnight, let's say. Would that not be one nation, all alone? Yet it would survive and
grow, would it not?

It doesn't matter if the one nation is a part of the globe, or the whole thing. A country can survive by itself, because it
already consists of many people. It is wrong (imo) to agrivate that and change something that has worked, is
working, and shows no sign of not working.

Of course. I am against globalization more specifically because I believe that those who would benefit from it would
then have the whole world in it's hands.

I like the fact that the US consists of states. You can leave one, and up until recent times, it was almost a different
place. you had to qualify for a new different driver's license for that state.. etc, etc.

Now the whole system is in place so that anywhere you go in the us. You show them your old card, and they'll give
you a new one for your new state. no tests or anything. your past follows you everywhere.

That's why humans like the frontier. It gives them a chance to escape and be seperate from civilization. You have a
clean slate as it were.

Ohh, I talk too much.

I'm too opinionated..

sorry If my ideals don't align perfectly with you dan, but we're only human.

[DanSteph]

No worry free,

At your age I had far, far more radical opinion.
Since I made a lot of trip around the world, learned a lot of things
about others culture, read a lot of history and others book and changed
my opinions. But one have to make this trip alone, discover the world,
experience how it goes etc etc.

I consider every opinion as *good* anytime it doesn't lead
to something that can make billion death. In this respect
the xtrem from right or left have proven to be evil as well
as nationalism, racism, fear, religions etc etc.

Dan

[freespace2dotcom]

hehe.. I do intend to travel the world someday. On something like a 3 year tour. I'd visit everywhere. That'd be soooo
cool.

Hopefully robots won't have enslaved us by then.


Seriously though. I agree that extreme right-left groups can be rash and therefore stupid. But I like to consider myself
as nice in the center. Not left nor right. up or down. Radical or liberal. etc. etc. etc.

I told Doc this, I can't remember if it was in email or not, but I must seem like a lefty to a right winger, and vice versa.
Therefore, I'm the extreme in the middle. No politician would dare back me because I don't play by the formal rules.

I'm not politically correct, and wouldnt' hesitate to give a person I hate a bloody nose than cause mass destruction
(pun intended) in foreign countries.

If there were more bloody noses, there'd be less wars.

Of course. Now that I think about it, that's how dueling began, the royalty frowned on nobles waging war on each
other because of insults. It made for less income for the crown, innit simon?

Of course. I'd be more favo(u)rable of a good 'ol fisticuff fight, rather than a fight to the death... But at least I
have my katana..

Now I'm rambling again. poor simon. I ruined the thread talking about your utility... with politics..

But then it's all doc's fault for mentioning the tradtional and metric systems. He knew that it
would provoke me.

[DocHoliday]

Hehe, I didn't really feel like reading all that yet, but it seems to me that Dan and Free agree on something they fail
to see

Isolationism is not what Free proposes and total merger of all cultures on Earth is not what Dan proposes.

What Free talks about is that nations should be self-sufficient in terms of not NEEDING anything outside (like Oil), but
trading what they do extra well with things they do not. Like in a relationship where it is bad policy if you NEED your
partners. It is a lot better that you don't but instead to CHOOSE to live with them, because you love them. Same
thing for nations.

What Dan talks about is that nations should not view others as inferior or even as an obstacle. That ideas and trade
should not be governed by politics and (un)natural laws and that people should not close their borders and their
minds because of fear of differences -> "Whoever is different may ne dangerous and until I am not sure they ARE
dangerous" thinking. It goes against "Innocent until proven guilty" You perhaps can built a shuttle alone, but you
cannot build the ISS alone. It takes many nations skill. If you wanted to build a Vespucci, probably even more would
be required. That's where strenght of humanity is hidden. Cooperation, accomanied by friendly competition in terms
of who will do things better for the common good. As Reagan once said, that may not be possible until aliens
appear

So basically you both agree, just didn't really get a chance to fully explain, right?

Anyway, imperial measures ARE imperial to the British and are Traditional to Americans Since Simon is British asking
for imperial would possibly yield more favourable results eh? But you had to make an issue of it eh, Free?

Back in the old days like Dan said each country had their own measures and even if they were called the same, for
example feet (pieds, korak) they may have been defined differently. Because European nations were forced to trade
and live with each other they quickly discovered unified units take away a lot of trouble British usually like to have
their own way in these things, which actually gave the Americans their "traditional" units now, which seem like a
drawback, since you guys are so used to them you refuse to let them go in face of a more practical system. At least in
the scientific area it is more practical.

I have great faith in America exactly because of the things that it is based on, cultural diversity, free trade and
entrepreneurial thinking. Alas currently, they are not seen as strengths even by Americans. The only thing America
lacks slightly (and it is quite logical) is a sense of social responsability, accountability for global actions and other
things that are so advanced that no nation masters them yet. So America has a tough job to do things the right way
and set a precedent for future. Far more important that to do the right things any way.

Cheers,

[DanSteph]

DocHoliday wrote:
Hehe, I didn't really feel like reading all that yet, but it seems to me that Dan and Free agree on something they fail
to see

true I had not the feeling that we where very far from each other
but here my english really touch the limit, I'm unable to expose clearly
my opinions nor to understand really well what was stated.

Politic is a subject where you need the full control of a language
because it's often subtle notions.



Dan



Post Edited ( 08-06-04 13:37 )

[DocHoliday]

... and strong emotions. I wish people were logical about politics and emotional about their family, not the other way
around

[freespace2dotcom]

Well, I guess I can see things that way... You more or less got my ideals as I see them.

Anyway, yeah, I heard that within like 10 years or so the amount of languages on the earth will have cut in half.

That's a good thing from a certain point of view, because it allows for better communication. (much like measureing
systems) However, on the other hand, That means that a great amount of culture and history will have died with
them.

While I'm willing to bet most european languages won't be of those to go, I'm just going to give an example...

Would you like it if I told you that you had to use english (or any other language) from now on? And if you tried to use
your native language, you'd be fined heavily? And what's worse, I'm telling you do do that because "everyone's doing
it"

I have the feeling you'd say "go to hell"

I still think that a considerable majority of the american people prefer to use traditional units, and if the government
was to say that we're going to use metric, and anyone caught using the old ways'd be fined. Well,  then I feel that
the "government of the people" is playing favorites.

Now, I have no problems with maintaining a positive relationships with the countries of the world. And surplus trading
is fine with me. As is buying a few things you don't want to make. But americans don't really make anything
anymore. We have a trading deficit that's so bad, it's not funny. I find this appalling.

And Yes, I had done some research on measureing units, and discovered "short" and "long" tons.

There are some pretty glaring differences between the american system and the british system. Why not change
them to match each other? Because we're both happy with what we've got.

and as for metric... Currently the meter is the distance light travels in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 second, right?

well, Even my uncle, who is more or less pro-metric laughed when I made one of my sarcastic statements about that...

"That's a real handy reference the next time you need to check the length of something"

In any case, I wouldn't even be too upset if america had both systems. In fact, we sort of already do. I just looked at
the eardrop holder I bought to fix that earwax problem I had a bit back. And sure enough, it has "1/2 FL OZ" on it as
well as "14.8 mL." That's just one random thing. But it's not just isolated. Almost everything has metric measurements
on it. Hell, soda bottles are in even liters.

I don't particularly like it, but this perfectly allows for anyone to understand how much is in it, no matter what you
use. I'm willing to compromise that much. But whoever tries to take that "1/2 FL OZ" off there is going to suffer my
wrath.

Now onto ISS building.

I personally think that American dominance pervades over the project. Indeed we have the shuttle, and without it,
the station couldn't be built. In fact, the loss of columbia showed how dependant the project is on americans. without
the shuttle, the project may fail. Of course, I'm sure that other alternatives will be considered before that happens..

But regardless. I feel that the ISS isn't really an international project so much as it's supposed to be. If I was to
bother with such a joint effort, well, I'd either push for for the other countries to develop a way to help build it, or else
wait for the technology costs to go down and then do it yourself. I know, I know, I'm terrible..

Of course this comes from a guy that was too lazy to research the ISS, so feel free to critisize me...

Now. people are emotional about politics because politics directly relates to the family. It's politics that determine
whether I use Traditional or metric, (among many many other things.) and I'm emotional about that. Many others are
too.

[Simonpro_2]

We aint using imperial units because they are a backwards, old fashioned, tricky to use, useless, ill thought out,
pathetic, miserable, calculation heavy, annoying system.
Americans can use them if they want, but ill be damned if i will
*grumbles something about being a physicist and hence not knowing about imperial units

[DanSteph]

freespace2dotcom wrote:
I still think that a considerable majority of the american people prefer to use traditional units,

My child preffer to eat sweety than vegatable and most peoples don't want to pay tax
or go to work.

The major part of european didn't wanted really to go to euro, each country
was very confortable with his hown money and most of them where here
since hundred years.

One have to do some efforts if it mean an improvment isn't it ?  

Anyway I don't live in america so I don't care really about what
you use. But I'm surprised that a young guy like you is an ardent
defensor of such an old  system, usually that come mostly from
old people

Dan



Post Edited ( 08-06-04 14:59 )

[freespace2dotcom]

That's fine with me, simon, we all have our perogative

It's too bad that the politicians want me to do things their way, not mine. That is unacceptable, If they would allow
people to use what they want, then I'd have no problem with metric, but until my right to measure is safe, I will fight
for it.

Personally, I think 12 is a great, well though out number.

You can divide it evenly by 1,2,3,4, and 6.

compared to 10 and it's even divisions of 1,2, and 5

*grumbles about being a realist and hence not knowing about metric units.

[freespace2dotcom]

Why dan, I'm 20 years old. I can't wait until I'm 24 years old.

Then I'd be two dozen years old.

[Simonpro_2]

HEHEHE,
I just read your post a little bit back - of course the ISS is an american project, they just got others in to take the
financiall  burden in exchange for a little bit of science.
Look what esa has done - they have developed an ENTIRELY new vehicle for use with the international space station -
 and in return (at the current time) they get to send astronauts to the ISS for about three weeks in a year!
And they even have to pay to do that!
I am secretly hoping the atv will be modified to become a crew launch vehicle - i know for a fact that is possible. and
that would be a damn sight cheaper than getting nasa to develop something new, and we might even get it before
we fossilise. Something that wont happen at the current nasa rate of progress.
Anyways, if you have ever tried to perform complex physics calculations in imperial then you will see my problem, it is
a stupid system of units for physics and i really see no use for it at all.
You may have 0.5fl/oz of earstuff, but you could also have 15ml, its just as easy a number to think of and it saves a
lot of time in the long run. Different parts of the world using different measurement systems costs us all a fortune.
Removing this barrier would save money, which could be used on more important things

[DocHoliday]

heheh, well I said it before, metric is VERY useful in science but in down-to-earth practice tranditional may be more
convenient (I restate my case for F).

Hehe, Dan: Freespace is just a casualty of free-mindedness. Same reason why I still don't have a degree. BECAUSE
PEOPLE TELL ME I HAVE TO HAVE IT!.. And when I ask why, they say, because you just have to. Same thing with
regular employment as opposed to part-time freelance jobs.. Same thing with having your own "bought" appartment
as opposed to renting... Again, same thing with marriage as opposed to just being with someone, because you love
to. It all makes sense, but I prefer to have a choice about it.. decide, not be instructed to do something. Matter of
personal freedom. Often then, I end up doing quite the opposite of "common sense" even things that are not good
for me.

Don't get me wrong, I know the up sides of it all, but it REALLY demotivates me, if I get the feeling I'm doing
something just so that others will appreciate me and that I will be a "normal" part of society... if they'd shut up about
it, I'd probably be on my way to Ph.D by now....

If people were smart, they would tell me that I SHOULD be an uneducated ignorant bum, living in a rented place with
a girl that might leave me and have odd jobs. If they'd really mean it, and be irritating about it, I'd probably end up
doing the opposite again

WHO WAS FIRST? Corporation, gov't, citizenship, police OR people? And WHO serves WHO??
It all seems to me, people work and buy because define their life with it, have kids because its their citizen duty, obey the rules because they are there..... Turn the shit around. Corp's should give the products/services you need not what they want to sell, gov't should do what the people vote on not what brings in more taxes, other people should not tell you what you should be like but instead be happy that you are there and police should protect you not make you feel threatened by them. And you should work at what makes you happy not what pays the rent........
*ranting on about the damn consumer, good-citizen obsessed, gov't fearing, blind sheep society.....*





Post Edited ( 08-06-04 15:32 )

[Simonpro]

Yes, finally got my password working :p

[freespace2dotcom]

Actually, Doc, I had disovered that originally fahrenheit had set body temperature to 98 degrees on purpose.

The thought being that if you dip the thermometer into ice water, you could mark the reading at 32, then stick the
thing in your mouth and mark that as 98.

There are 64 divisions between those, making it pretty easy to reproduce the scale.

Then some moron comes along after his death and thinks that the boiling point of water'd be better reference point
than body temp. That idiot didn't realize the planning that went into this system.

And I like traditional units because:

1. I grew up with them
2. They are easier for me to use casually.
3. Fractions rule.

It's true the fact that the government wants me to use metric only makes it worse.
But rest assured if they tried that reverse psychology trick on me it would not work.



Post Edited ( 08-06-04 16:49 )

[DocHoliday]

Would you like it if I told you that you had to use english (or any other language) from now on? And if you
tried to use your native language, you'd be fined heavily? And what's worse, I'm telling you do do that
because "everyone's doing it"

That's the real threat isn't it.. Esperanto for example died before it was officially born, perhaps because of what you
and Dan both said. No cultural background and an overlay to existing cultures.

But let me tell you this. What you said, already HAPPENED. Lemme explain. I live in a nation, the total of which is 2
million people. That's not even half of New York or Chicago, let alone London. We are forced to learn english and
serbo/croation since 4th grade of primary school. Once you are out, you are free to forget it. BUT. Every employer
required a knowledge of english and optionally german or french. Of course you are not fined for speaking slovene in
the street, but if you fail to get a job, because you don't speak english and are then forced to work in a job that pays
for example 30% less (which is quite probable) are you not fined 30% of your "potential" income??

The EU officially has like 7 or more "official" languages. Which means every piece of legislature or even an official fart
has to be translated to at least this many languages. I find that VERY inefficient cost-wise, but VERY advanced in
terms of respecting cultural identity. Unofficially though, English is de facto the common language with the simple
reason that most people learned it in school. The next alternative would be French. The next possibly Esperanto or
more likely German. Slovene is so far down the list it's not even funny. But what I am supposed to do? I can refuse to
speak English and get left behind, never being able to discuss things with any of you or try to speak the lingo even
better than most of you, for the precise reason Dan mentioned ... to get my ideas accross and further the legacy of
my own nation... I mean it is pathetically funny when you find Americans are asking which part of America you are
from as they don't recognize the accent. And then you tell them where you are from, and that not every english-
speaking person must be american by default you get an even more pathetic reaction as a result no offense, but
that's what I experienced more than once.

Anyway, speaking a common language may not mean the death of cultures, unless the language was so inflexible as
to shrink the dictionary or even actively try to abandon certain concepts and words.. -> Orwell's Newspeak like...

I have nothing against english in this respect as it appears to be supremely flexible. I mean I've even heard recently
words like polenta(accurately describe it in english), klobasa (sausage), prshut (thin slices of smoked pork meat)
which are plain Slovene more power to ya

Cheers,

[freespace2dotcom]

Actually, though. I think languages are a great part of Identity. I think you should be able to speak your own
language in your own country if you so see fit. I want to learn japanese because I like japan, which is an eastern
country in which english really has no place culturally. It would be wrong to force everyone there to speak english, yet
I still want to go there, so I'm more than willing to learn a bit of their own culture in the process.



edit: Oh, and chicago has about 3 million people, so yes you've got over half the population of chicago.

That should make you feel better.



Post Edited ( 08-06-04 16:44 )

[Simonpro]

The major reason, in my opinion, why people dislike metric is because they are too scared to try something new.
Most (not all) of these stick-in-the-muds who dislike metric are also against things like the euro, which could be of
great benifit to the uk, but there we go.
Thank the lord our countries are not ruled by such scared and unadventurous people - or else we'd all still be in
wodden boats pottering about on the sea and not sitting here talking. Without visionaries there'd be no space
program for one thing...

[freespace2dotcom]

Hey, now. I'm a hip techie.

I confess metric has it's advantages. I've said before that I'd be willing to have metric in america, even if I don't like it.
But one very big thing needs to be understood. I'd only allow it if traditional units would not be phased out.
That's very important to me.

However, those that push metric in my country seem damn near certain that traditional units are worthless and
inferior. Most either don't care what happens to it or would like to see it go down and burn. This attitude was very clearly demonstrated by what I've read about in the UK lately. Among that was the fact that it's since been illegal to sell things measured in traditional units? That just rubs me the wrong way.

Until that attitude is fixed, (not likely) I'll resist this movement here with every bone in my body.

I'd like to take this time to say that this world has yet to see a manned metric spacecraft land on the moon.

So obviously we can use the traditional system for more than just boats.

Now, about the "1/2 FL OZ" VS "15 mL" Both are equally easy to to remember, but on one hand, you have something that is only one half of a set unit. Very easy for me to visualise. On the other hand you have something that is 15/1000 of a set unit. I know what a liter is, because I drink soda all the time.

But even so, a fraction like that is very hard on my mind. You might as well be selling me 15 nanoliters.

To my human mind, I can tell that nano is smaller, but I would compare it to a drop of water, and then some unseeable amount of water. Not a difference on my scale. after all, 1000 is a big number, anything that is only 1/1000 must be so small it's not worth mentioning. 15 is still very small to 1000. You see what I'm saying?

Indeed it's true that for things like physics and whatnot. (science stuff) metric is probably better to compute. (even if harder to conceptualize.) I won't contest that. But it's a complete other thing when you start using it for everyday things, like food, our own weights. etc, etc.

Hell, we measure microchips in nanometers too, smart guy. 8)

When every single american becomes a scientist, then I'll shut up.



Post Edited ( 08-07-04 18:36 )

[C3PO]

freespace2dotcom wrote:
Indeed it's true that for things like physics and whatnot. (science stuff) metric is probably better to compute. (even if
harder to conceptualize.) I won't contest that. But it's a complete other thing when you start using it for everyday
things, like food, our own weights. etc, etc.

How can two different systems be easier then one????

Being able to 'visualize' a unit is only a matter of what you are used to personaly.

British/Americans tend to forget (or don't know) that almost every country in Europe had it's own set of units, and are
a bit offended that it's they who have to change. We (the rest of Europe) HAVE already changed, and now we have
no problem in 'visualize' the metric units.

Beside the fact that european countrys use the same units now, the metric system also made people in different
tredes/jobs also do. In several countries farmers didn't use the same units as bricklayers etc.

Scandinavia (usually we say it's 4 countries) used to have 5 different miles (not counting the british), 2 different
yards, and at least 3 different inches. And if you talk about weight there was a huge number of units depending on
what profession and area you were in.

The fact that 12 can be divided by more dividends then 10 is in my oppinion not very important. Noone uses fractions
anymore anyway. If you use decimal numbers, you eliminate the need for conversion when you start to use
computers/calculators. Actually I think it's odd that someone would use 1/12 units in a decimal number system.
If people started to use the octal or hexal numbers, we could probably save even more, if you look at the amount of
data compiled in the whole world. But that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

But 20 years ago noone thought we were going to use radians or complex numbers at lower levels of education, so I
wouldn't bet on that.

Rememer, the only constant thing is............ change

C3PO

[freespace2dotcom]

Hehe.. One must remember that a standard of measurement is merely a tool.

I have a hammer, you have a screwdriver. Neither of them are good for everything.

Hell, Doc mentioned that in the EU documents are translated into several Official languages. Wouldn't it be easier to
just use one? Probably. But why aren't you doing that? because it's out of respect. Some people won't change and
use the "high and almighty" english lanugage. I say more power to them. It takes guts to go against the system.

If you wish to visualize your terms in metric, I'm all for you. But I'll stick to mine, thank-you-very-much.

Radians? Hell, I don't use those, And I'm out of high school. Although I confess I've heard of them, that's a far cry
from using them in "lower levels of education"  

You may not believe me, but I distinctly remember my first encouter with metric back in 2nd grade. Right from the start I hated metric.  

Maybe the world should switch to a decimal calandar system, with 10 months, and 10 day weeks. I'm sure everbody'd
love that. And I know it's been tried before. it didn't meet much success, because we're still working with a
base 12... oh, sorry, do you not like that number?

If we constantly changed everything, then we'd be in a lot of trouble.

And about differences, I seem to recall that there are some differences between some countries' metrics. As while
most of these aren't very pronounced at all, it's still worth bringing up the point.
For that matter, America doesn't have 5 different miles, either.

BTW, computers use binary. Maybe we should all switch to that. It would save even more money according to your
claims. I can just imagine bringing up the numbers.

guy: 1111101000?

girl: Oh, I meant one thousand.

Guy: silly me. I should have guessed that right away.

I'm sure that'd be a real help.

People can learn more than one language, and if it came down to it, I could learn two measurement systems. Of
course, I think it's a waste of time, but hey, I also think katanas are cool, and according to certain physics of
swordness that escape me, they're not cool. Go figure

Like in the bible, God says "I change not." and man was created in god's image, eh?

Sorry if this particular post is offending to you, but I'm getting into that "Dont' tread on me" mode, so feel free to not
take me too seriously.

Just know that I'm very stubborn.



Post Edited ( 08-07-04 21:01 )

[Krytom]

Ugh! You lot talk a lot don't you, especially Free and Doc.

BTW: Doc is only 4 posts behind Freespace, he's catching up!!!!!
BTW again: I'm 5 away from living legend no.4!!!!!
BTW again again: I'm back from Denmark

Sorry

Carry on writing essays.

[Atom]

Don't worry Tom, I havn't bothered reading them either. To long.

[freespace2dotcom]

I know doc's not that far from me. He was in front of me for a while... It's just that I have more important things to do
than post insanely long messages...

Or do I?

In any case, The amount of posts don't matter as much as I do have the most posts on this forum that isn't a staffer.

And It's not that hard to read, just so long as you keep up with it, but I confess it's a bit daunting to read it from
scratch.

Oh well..